<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML style="FONT-SIZE: x-small; FONT-FAMILY: MS Sans Serif"><HEAD> <META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; = charset=iso-8859-1"> <META content="MSHTML 6.00.2900.2627" name=GENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=#ffffff> <DIV><FONT face=Arial>Hello Farrell and List</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial>I often am called to pianos which haven't seen a = tuner for many, many years. Frequently I find them just a tad down. Sometimes I = find them a tone down.... Let's face it - it depends on a multiplicity of factors = not least of which is Humidity, Central Heating, being kept in a lean-to conservatory, in a stone-built church, a theatre, Opera House, you name = it there are too many combinations out there to come to any reasonable = conclusion. Last week I went to an old friend (a piano, of course!) which I hadn't seen = for about ten years. The owner had put it into storage three times, had given it = to her daughter then the daughter moved and it went back into storage. Now it = is in an old flint built farm cottage near the river Ouse and I went to tune it = again. "Hello my old friend" I thought "I haven't seen you for a while - and = how is this Collard & Collard upright?" Actually it was just about spot on! = So how can one generalise? I do find some old pianos with up to four turns in = the coil but I am sure that was so originally and not as a result of = long-term bringing up to pitch. I have an ancient Bord WOOD FRAME upright (French = piano) I go to once a year (or longer) and it too stays in tune quite acceptably. = The owner is a singer and the children play string instruments so they would = know if it went out. Amazing!</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial>Regards from a blowy and sunny Sussex = village</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial>Michael G.(UK)</FONT></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; = BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: = black"><B>From:</B> <A title=mfarrel2@tampabay.rr.com href="mailto:mfarrel2@tampabay.rr.com">Farrell</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A = title=pianotech@ptg.org href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">Pianotech</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, May 12, 2005 = 3:03 AM</DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Grist for the = Mill</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial>5 cents per year? Quite unreasonable. With = only one exception, pianos that I tune regularly - at least once per year (and = most only once per year) - never need a pitch raise - and if any were = 5 cents flat, it would need a pitch raise. Two cents or less per year would be = my estimate. Do you find pianos that have not been tuned for 10 years to = be 50 cents flat? I find that it takes more like 25 or 30 years (or = more) to go 50 cents flat.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial>Terry Farrell</FONT></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; = BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV>Oh, yeah? Well they laughed at Rodney Dangerfield, too! </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Okay, maybe it's a not-so-stable piano, who knows? As we go = about tuning, let's all the folks with ETDs experiment a time or two ... = </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>How far do you you turn a pin to bring a piano up 50 cents? = Let's say the sucker is only tuned every ten years, falling 5 cents a year = (not unreasonable, Shirley). That makes 10 tunings at 50 cents flat each = time. I'm thinking that's good for about 4 additional coils, minimum = ...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Let the Cyberspace Electrons fly! It ain't over yet ... = the fat lady is still in the wings, eating wings, awaiting a curtain = call.*</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV>Alan Barnard</DIV> <DIV>Helmut Still On, One Minor Dent, in Salem, MO</DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV></DIV> <DIV> <DIV>*You can identify the call of the Western Red-Tufted Curtain by = its swooping hoop, rising half a semitone while the bird lifts its = head up about 135 degrees (Fahrenheit).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; = BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid"> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt Arial">----- Original Message ----- = </DIV> <DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: = black"><B>From:</B> <A title=mfarrel2@tampabay.rr.com href="mailto:mfarrel2@tampabay.rr.com">Farrell</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To: </B><A = title=pianotech@ptg.org href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">Pianotech</A></DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> 05/11/2005 8:18:33 PM = </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Grist for the = Mill</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV><FONT size=2> <DIV><FONT face=Arial>A 30 degree turn of a tuning pin every = year on a stable piano? No way!</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial>Calculate the pitch increase with a 30 = degree rotation on a 2/0 pin - even the 7.5 degree rotation - I = suspect you will very quickly realize your numbers are grossly = excessive.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial>Unless, of course, I am wrong. But I don't = think so.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial>Terry Farrell</FONT></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; = BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- = </DIV> <DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: = black"><B>From:</B> <A title=tune4u@earthlink.net = href="mailto:tune4u@earthlink.net">alan and carolyn barnard</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A = title=pianotech@ptg.org href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">Pianotech</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, May 11, = 2005 8:50 PM</DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Grist for the = Mill</DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT><BR></DIV> <P> <DIV>We recently had a long dialog on here about the actual = changes in a piano that has gone flat. There was much poo-pooing (can we say = that on TV?) from some folks of the notion that tuning pins turned counter-clockwise when pianos go flat. Their arguments were logical and some folks even produced mathematics to = demonstrated that pin reversal is unlikely.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>BUT ...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I was thinking about this on my way home from PTG chapter = meeting (2.5 hr drive) and came up with a little point of logic which = suggests that the pins MUST move. See what you think ...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Virtually all pianos go flat over longish time periods and certainly are found flat more often than sharp if you go through = a whole cycle of season changes, i.e., an annual tuning. When = we bring a flat string up to pitch, it tends to increase the width of the = coil slightly every time we turn the pin. If the pin is = turned one full revolution--360 degrees--over years of tuning, this would = add the thickness dimension of the wire to the overall coil width = and one full wire wrap to the number of coils. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You with me?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So let's take a hypothetical piano string--say a very = stable 1905 Howard upright A4 middle string--that has averaged (let's be conservative...) falling flat enough that a 7.5 degree = turn of the pin was required each year to bring it up to pitch. Now = 7.5 degrees is a fairly small annual adjustment, just a little = tweak, actually. Ce n'est pas? It's only 1/6 if a quarter turn.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So, between 1905 and 2005, we have turned that string's pin 100 X 7.5 = 750 degrees, more than two full = turns.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>How many old pianos do we run into that have five or more = coils on the pin? I never noticed any.  In fact, most seem = to have the original 3 coils standing about as far from the plate as the = day it was strung--unless someone has hammered them in, in which case = it's still only about 3 coils!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV>Pause ... thinkin on that?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now strings must become ever so slightly thinner as they = stretch, especially in the earlier years. So, for the string to produce = the same pitch, the string tension required would be ever so slightly = less over time. This would have a very slight mitigating effect on the = thought puzzle proposed above. But nowhere near enough to explain = 100 years of flatness, methinks. And ven if the string is stretching, you = would still be adding linear length to the coil every time.  <DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV></DIV> <DIV>I believe, in fact, that about a 30 annual correction, or more, would be very common.  Think about your own = real-world, real-piano experience. Visualize pulling your tuning = hammer through a 30 degree arc, i.e., 1/3 of a quarter turn. = That's still a pretty darned small once-a-year adjustment. So, I = think my estimates here have been very, very conservative.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyway, at 30 degrees the piano would have to = have a total of 8+ full coils on every pin if the pin never turned backward.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Your turn or, as we used to say in Viet Nam .... I n c o m = i n g ! ! ! </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Alan Barnard</DIV></DIV> <DIV>Hunkered in the Bunker in Salem, MO</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> = <P></P></BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY>= </HTML>