<HTML>In a message dated 11/28/2002 7:37:53 AM Pacific Standard Time, Erwinspiano writes: <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Subj:Re: 6:3 bass octaves---why? Date:11/28/2002 7:37:53 AM Pacific Standard Time From:<A HREF="mailto:Erwinspiano">Erwinspiano</A> To:<A HREF="mailto:mathstar@salemnet.com">mathstar@salemnet.com</A> In a message dated 11/27/2002 9:53:09 PM Pacific Standard Time, mathstar@salemnet.com writes: <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Subj:Re: 6:3 bass octaves---why? Date:11/27/2002 9:53:09 PM Pacific Standard Time From:<A HREF="mailto:mathstar@salemnet.com">mathstar@salemnet.com</A> To:<A HREF="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">pianotech@ptg.org</A> Sent from the Internet             Good post Alan. </BLOCKQUOTE>           Trained as an ear tuner by Dad this is what He taught as well but 6-3 <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">works well untill you get to the last few bichords at which time the octaves are getting closer to 8-4 octaves. I like a gradually flatter and flatter bass. Actually so does everybody else it's just that we don't think of it as stretching as we do in the treble. But that's what needs to happen.  Practically speaking the way I use 6-3 octaves is the lower I go the slower I allow the bottom notes beat rate to become. Listening to the beat in the octave and not letting it get to rolling excessively but pushing it as flat as I can stand it especially in the mono -chords. By doing this these notes will be more in tune when playing chords and melodies higher up and create a more musically  homogenous sound.</BLOCKQUOTE>   To test this play some chords inoctave three and four and play the corresponding musical bass notes or octaves including the lowest note possible in the bass. Or play c- major chord and add c-1 after that. Then futz with its tuning only against hte chord. This will tell you fast if you need to tune them flatter(or not) to create a more melodic relationship. This is a very effective little test with all pianos but especially shows up short scaled bass.        Happy Thanksgiving           Dale Erwin        The eyes of all wait upon thee o Lord and thou givest them meat in due season. Tou openest thine hand and satisfys the desire of every living Thing.   From thePsalms   <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px"> At a decent piano, tune it 4:2, play, listen. Same piano, tune it 6:3, play listen. The 6:3 is a tad more stretched, cumulative down to A0. Most people like the bigger sounding base. On most small pianos, the beat at the quint (Octave + 5th) is louder, more pronounced, and more objectionable than a beat at the double octave (which ends up about 2 bps in a 6:3 tuning). With a 6:3 the 5ths get "almost pure" very quickly going down--you can actually use 5ths as a bass tuning check unless and until the bass strings themselves start getting noisy false beats ("longitudinal inharmonicity"--work that into a party conversation, the blank stares are fun) The real test for me is that most smaller pianos just sound bigger. I've had several clients comment on how much better their bass sounds than the way previous tuners have left them. One client, a conservatory-trained concert artist, has a very nice grand but also has a Wurlitzer console that she teaches kids on. After I tuned the Wurly--not explaining how I tune the bass--she played it and exclaimed: "Oh, it sounds like my grand!" THAT's why I aim for 6:3 in most pianos. Notice I say "aim for." Reblitz says "... in the bass, each octave has two or more prominent beats of different speeds that occur simultaneously. If you eliminate one beat, the other is offensive, so the place to tune the string is between those beats ..." On a really poorly scaled piano, or crummy little spinet, etc., that can be true so you just have to "even out the growls" as the late, great Mr. Defebaugh said. Also, I watch for smooth progressions (3rds, 6ths, 10ths) across the tenor break and adjust that, where necessary. But generally my octaves are 6:3 2:1 is just way to shallow for the bass. Experiment a little, you'll get beats at the double, the double +5th, and some other hash. 2:1 in the temperament is also two narrow--your inside intervals just won't fit. Save the 2:1 for the high treble. I don't have very many years of experience but I have read and experimented quite a bit. Yet I will be delighted to hear comments on your question and/or my answer from the long-time pro's out there. My two pennies. Happy T'day, Everyone! Alan Barnard Grateful for Much in Salem, MO ----- Original Message ----- From: <Tvak@aol.com> To: <pianotech@ptg.org> Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 2002 10:52 PM Subject: 6:3 bass octaves---why? </BLOCKQUOTE> </BLOCKQUOTE> </HTML>