<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40" xmlns:v = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:st1 = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags"><HEAD> <META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; = charset=iso-8859-1"> <META content="MSHTML 6.00.2800.1106" name=GENERATOR><o:SmartTagType name="PersonName" namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags"></o:SmartTagT= ype> <STYLE>@font-face { font-family: Tahoma; } @page Section1 {size: 8.5in 11.0in; margin: 1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in; } P.MsoNormal { FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman" } LI.MsoNormal { FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman" } DIV.MsoNormal { FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman" } A:link { COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline } SPAN.MsoHyperlink { COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline } A:visited { COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline } SPAN.MsoHyperlinkFollowed { COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline } P { FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 0in; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0in; FONT-FAMILY: = "Times New Roman"; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto } SPAN.EmailStyle18 { COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-style-type: personal-reply } DIV.Section1 { page: Section1 } </STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY lang=EN-US vLink=blue link=blue> <DIV><SPAN class=850121600-30092004><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff = size=2>true. but to give input on the first part, i'm curious as to what everyone = else would say. i was trained at the "baptism by fire/throw 'em to the wolves" = school, where you didn't get to tune the nice pianos until you learned how to = make the most abused practice-room uprights sound like a piano. it took me eight = hours to tune my first piano. be patient with yourself!</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=850121600-30092004><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff = size=2>-ilex</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px = solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT = face=Tahoma size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> = pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org]<B>On Behalf Of </B>Richard Cromwell<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, September 29, 2004 3:59 = PM<BR><B>To:</B> 'Pianotech'<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: Octave Tuning<BR><BR></FONT></DIV> <DIV class=Section1> <P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I would not = suggest <U>practicing</U> your tuning on someone else’s piano… especially = if you want to stay friends with them.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P> <P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: = Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P> <P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: = Arial">R.Cromwell<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P> <P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Cromwell's = Piano Service – Detroit,MI<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P> <P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial color=navy size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: = Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P> <DIV> <DIV class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" = align=center><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <HR tabIndex=-1 align=center width="100%" SIZE=2> </SPAN></FONT></DIV> <P class=MsoNormal><B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: = Tahoma">From:</SPAN></FONT></B><FONT face=Tahoma size=2><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: = Tahoma"> <st1:PersonName w:st="on">pianotech-bounces@ptg.org</st1:PersonName> = [mailto:<st1:PersonName = w:st="on">pianotech-bounces@ptg.org</st1:PersonName>] <B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">On Behalf Of </SPAN></B>Matthew Todd<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> = Wednesday, September 29, 2004 2:13 PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> <st1:PersonName w:st="on">Pianotech</st1:PersonName><BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: Octave Tuning</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV> <P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P> <DIV> <P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Thanks for the replies.  I am = practicing my tuning on a 1913 Hinze upright.  Is that doing me more harm than = good here?  I think it is hard to hear lots of stuff on that piano, = but then again, I am a beginner, so I don't know if it's more the piano or more = me not having trained ears yet.  I know lots of families with much newer = pianos, should I try to hook up with one of them and maybe work it out with = them to practice my tuning on it?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Matthew<BR><BR><B><I><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-STYLE: = italic">BobDavis88@aol.com</SPAN></I></B> wrote:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: = medium none; MARGIN-TOP: 5pt; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt; = PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 1.5pt = solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none"> <DIV> <P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Matthew = writes:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: = medium none; MARGIN-TOP: 5pt; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt; = PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: blue 1.5pt solid; = PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none"> <DIV> <P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">When I tune the = temperament octave (A3-A4), it needs to be a 4:2 octave, correct?  </SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> <P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">No. Read the many replies which said that = it should usually be wider than that.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: = medium none; MARGIN-TOP: 5pt; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt; = PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: blue 1.5pt solid; = PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none"> <DIV> <P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">And one way to test = this octave is to play the A two octaves above the lower note as the = test key, to hear the partials in the octave, am I right?</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> <P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Not exactly, but read Don Rose's comments = on ghosting.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: = medium none; MARGIN-TOP: 5pt; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt; = PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 3.75pt; BORDER-LEFT: blue 1.5pt solid; = PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none"> <DIV> <P class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Arial size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">  If the octave = you are testing has no beat whatsoever, you have a perfect temperament = octave, is this true?</SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> <P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">No. There is no such thing as a beatless = octave. An octave which is not beating at one level, such as 4:2, will be = beating at all other coincident partials, such as 2:1, 6:3, 8:4. The higher the = beatless coincident is in the chain, the wider the octave. A good = compromise octave is usually pretty quiet, though, = <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: = 12pt">Matthew,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">If you have kept this trail of posts on = octave tuning, please go back and re-read it, and the links to which you = were referred, including the ones to the AccuTuner manual Appendices F = and H. People are happy to spend time helping you, but you've got to do = your homework and read the replies. At the risk of repetition, I include, = directly below, a copy of my post from last week on this subject:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Bob = Davis<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: = 12pt">-------------<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Matthew's original question was how to = tune a 4:2 octave. Several people, myself included, sent the tests, aural and = visual. Whether that [meaning 4:2] is appropriate for the temperament octave = on a particular piano is a second question. Tuning so that "the 10th is = just noticeably faster than the third" might produce a good width of = octave, but it is NOT a 4:2. [It's wider] <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P> <DIV> <P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV> <DIV> <P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">A clean 4:2 octave IS wide at 2:1, and = narrow at 6:3. Most aural tuners naturally gravitate towards a temperament = octave that is very slightly wide of 4:2 ("the 10th is just noticeably faster = than the third"), which will be substantially wide of 2:1 and a tiny narrow = of 6:3. This gives an octave that is pretty clean-sounding, and produces = fifths which are pretty clean and fourths that aren't too trashy. Any = octave size can be divided into 12 equal half steps. A true 4:2 octave will = produce cleaner fourths and more movement in the fifths, and on most pianos = will be unnecessarily narow. However, on some pianos with high = inharmonicity, a wide temperament octave added to a clean octave below, will = produce a double octave that is too noisy. It's a balancing act. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV class=MsoNormal style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" = align=center><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <HR align=center width="100%" SIZE=1> </SPAN></FONT></DIV> <P class=MsoNormal><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Do you Yahoo!?<BR><A href="http://vote.yahoo.com">vote.yahoo.com</A> - Register online to = vote today!<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>