<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1" = http-equiv=Content-Type> <META content="MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=GENERATOR></HEAD> <BODY> <BLOCKQUOTE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: = 5px"> <DIV align=left class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr><FONT = face=Tahoma><FONT size=2><B>de</B> <A = href="mailto:Billbrpt@AOL.COM">Billbrpt@AOL.COM</A><FONT color=#0000ff></FONT><FONT size=2><FONT face=Arial><SPAN = class=230475922-20102001> </SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV= > <DIV align=left class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr><FONT = face=Tahoma><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT size=2><FONT face=Arial><SPAN class=230475922-20102001> </SPAN><BR></DIV> <DIV></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT><FONT face=Arial><FONT = size=2>Older tuners in Europe not tuning pure ET:  For at least a century, ET has been = the one and only temperament believed in.  All other kinds not understood = nor having any interest, ET has morphed into a curiously mild but = backwards version of a Well Temperament. <BR><BR>This has happened because = tuners concentrate too much on trying to make the 4ths and 5ths too pure. =  The temperament sequence begins in the white keys.  A too pure 5th = creates a 3rd which is too wide.  By the end of the sequence, something has = to give, so the overly tempered 5ths among the black keys create 3rds = which are too slow.  *Voilà*, you get *Reverse Well*. <SPAN class=230475922-20102001><FONT color=#0000ff> </FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2><SPAN class=230475922-20102001></SPAN></FONT></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN = class=230475922-20102001>I have the impression that this is not so simple !</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=230475922-20102001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN = class=230475922-20102001>The tuners I refer are tuning temperaments based on thirds, sixths, using = 4ths an 5ths of course, and they can absolutely make a pure ET if they wish. = They are in fact very attentive to the color of the fifths and not only in = temperament, I only guess they are used to live these small differences in color, = because they find it is better in the particular piano they tune (mostly the = same make/models)</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=230475922-20102001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=230475922-20102001>Depending of their temperament generation = method the most noticeable offs fifths can be F C, or Eb Bb for example, and I = see that as their signature,nature when I m working after one of them.</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN = class=230475922-20102001>One of them (a younger in that case, uses a 4th & 5ths based = temperament with too large a E fifth at first, and may be finish with what you call = 'reverse Well' )</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=230475922-20102001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN = class=230475922-20102001>I use to consider the use of the thirds for accuracy, but the sound of = fifths for quality ( and I use all kind of EDT too sometime if not always)</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=230475922-20102001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=230475922-20102001>Tuning a strictly third based temperament = (as Sanderson Baldassin) is the actual method learned. Many can develop a = feel for fithts an tenths flavor, then the 5ths will tend to be more pure and = with no noticeable beat (or a tad expanded, where the beat is not very present)</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><BR><FONT face=Arial size=2>It has also been my observation = and thus my belief that virtually all 20th Century music, including Jazz is also = tonal and adheres to the same basic concept.  Close, simple harmony is = written in the simple, white keys.  Sweeping, melodic and vibrant music uses = the black keys. <SPAN class=230475922-20102001><FONT color=#0000ff> </FONT></SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=230475922-20102001></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN = class=230475922-20102001><FONT color=#0000ff>I find it very well interesting from a musical point = of view, to hear pre 20th (21)century instruments and music in different = temperament. It can be some help for the pianist, but the artifact may not hide the = music, </FONT></SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=230475922-20102001></SPAN><FONT size=2><FONT = face=Arial><SPAN class=230475922-20102001><FONT color=#0000ff>The color added from = the start may not be so much present that it will be more noticeable than the = musical intention. Don't know if I make myself clear , it is like if you = have to play with a piano where all the notes are sounding so nice whatever = the way you play ...</FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2><FONT face=Arial><SPAN class=230475922-20102001></SPAN></FONT></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial><SPAN class=230475922-20102001>Beside, from a technical point of view, I = can't see how we could manage to tune a piano once one way, once another, it is difficult enough to have them stable and easy to maintain, not to be = obliged to re-tune all more and more at any new configuration.</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial><SPAN class=230475922-20102001></SPAN></FONT></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial><SPAN class=230475922-20102001>I feel we have a lot to gain to learn the temperaments and I am inclined to work that (I've done a bit yet = , but have not much applications), but this may be strictly aurally = (checking with EDT if it is OK) to get a chance to understand the point . (my guess is)</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial><SPAN class=230475922-20102001></SPAN></FONT></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial><SPAN class=230475922-20102001>I sometime have to tune a piano using a = simple 4ths and 5the based temperament, only because the precedent tuner have done = that and I don't have time to change all, then I have to find his mood, and = stay with it. It is amazing how I was able to be in his sound when I've = done that. I guess I can say I learned to tune the 'reverse Well ' ;>)</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2><FONT color=#0000ff face=Arial><SPAN class=230475922-20102001></SPAN></FONT></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2>Since many pianists have been = unknowingly and inadvertently subjected to Reverse Well, they have learned to do = what I would call "bang harder" when playing Chopin just to get some kind of = color out of the piano where it is lacking.  For these people, a = temperament which curiously goes contrary to the basic theories of how most HTs = are constructed, why and how they are used seems to work. <BR><SPAN class=230475922-20102001><FONT color=#0000ff></FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2><SPAN = class=230475922-20102001><FONT color=#0000ff>Not sure I understand, but the pianist polite comments = generally are : "the piano had been in a cold and hot," or " it had moved a very = little"</FONT> <FONT color=#0000ff>, as the instrument had been = tuned as that since the start.</FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2><SPAN class=230475922-20102001></SPAN></FONT></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2><SPAN class=230475922-20102001> </SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=230475922-20102001></SPAN><FONT size=2><FONT face=Arial>Steinway tuners tuning pure 5ths:  This is natural = to this instrument.  It has a relatively high degree of inharmonicity = compared to most other pianos.  This leads naturally to a wider octave in the = Temperament Sequence range, to purer 5ths and wider 3rds in this range = and to virtually pure 5ths by the 5th octave and even slightly wide 5ths in = the 6th and 7th octaves (also in the lowest octaves). <BR><BR>The Steinway = piano also lends itself to the so called, ET with pure 5ths idea.  In = Madison, Wisconsin, we call that the "New York Stretch".  The big mistake = that can be made is to try to do this with a piano which has lower = inharmonicity or a small piano in someone's living room.  At best, it will produce a = very steely, harsh sounding piano but the usual result is Reverse Well.  Believe me, I know, I have heard it literally thousands of = times, here and most anywhere I have traveled. <BR><FONT = color=#0000ff><SPAN class=230475922-20102001> </SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2><FONT face=Arial><FONT color=#0000ff><SPAN class=230475922-20102001></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2><FONT face=Arial><SPAN = class=230475922-20102001>I don't know if The S&S pianos have big jumps in Inharmonicity from note = to note, but tuning them to the edge of the stretch in the octaves = produces always differences in fifths colors, only because one follow the natural = stretch allowed by the piano, and this while sticking to a 'more or less 'Pure = ET (I mean with very even thirds progression) The fact that these 5Ths color = is not under another control than whose of the piano himself is another = question B.M.O.</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2><FONT face=Arial><SPAN class=230475922-20102001></SPAN></FONT></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2><FONT face=Arial><SPAN = class=230475922-20102001>Then, what is it we call "Pure E.T. ?</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2><FONT face=Arial><SPAN class=230475922-20102001></SPAN></FONT></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2><FONT face=Arial><SPAN = class=230475922-20102001>Besides, I am much impressed by all the involvement made around the old tempering = method, and find it very interesting.</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2><FONT face=Arial><SPAN class=230475922-20102001></SPAN></FONT></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2><FONT face=Arial><SPAN class=230475922-20102001></SPAN></FONT></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2><FONT face=Arial><SPAN = class=230475922-20102001>Isaac OLEG</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>