<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; = charset=iso-8859-1"> <META content="MSHTML 5.50.4522.1800" name=GENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=#ffffff> <DIV><FONT size=2>Terry:</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>I think that kind of sampling (5 A's and 5 other = notes) is probably overkill and takes too much time.  Since I tune the lower = part of the piano using the direct tuning method I agree that the A and C = measurements are more important.  If you don't want to change the DOB on the fly = then I think tuning F3, F4 and F5 for the DOB measurement will give you a good = enough read.  </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>If the piano is poorly scaled and the lower part of = the tenor bridge coincides with F3 and looks a bit like a hockey stick, then move = up the scale a bit and take</FONT><FONT size=3> A3, A4, A5, or from a point = where the inharmonicity numbers start to drop a bit.  Tune from that point = going up first and then down from there using the direct tune method checking = aurally as you go.  For smaller pianos I find that tuning perfect 4:2's down = to about B2 and perfect 6:3's the rest of the way usually works pretty = well.  But the piano will generally tell you where it wants that transition to = be made. I find it is a pretty reliable and quick way of working .</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>David Love</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>----- Original Message ----- </FONT></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; = BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: = black"><B>From:</B> <A title=mfarrel2@tampabay.rr.com href="mailto:mfarrel2@tampabay.rr.com">Farrell</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A = title=pianotech@ptg.org href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">pianotech@ptg.org</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> October 22, 2001 7:40 = PM</DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: more on this = temperament thing</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV>Thanks for the input David. What I do usually is do my FAC, and = then sample 5 A's or whatever note, and often 5 of another note to test = octaves. I see how they vary and then choose appropriate DOB to get what I want. = The A measurement has (by far) the dominant effect on the tuning = calculation. I often measure all three A4 strings, and the middle A#4 and the middle = G#4 string and see what they look like. It is interesting to look at = these because often one of the notes will differ quite a bit from the = others. Remember, there is nothing magical about A4 when choosing a note to = measure for the FAC tuning calculation. A4 is simply (ideally) a = representative note from that area of the piano. Anyway, after I adjust the DOB to get = what I want, I start tuning from A0.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>One of my goals is to adjust my style and start tuning from A4 so = that I can incorporate adjustments on the fly. I say I have read all of Jim = Coleman's material - I have. But I have to admit that I have not incorporated = all of it into my daily tuning routine. I'm working on it!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Terry Farrell <SPAN = id=__#Ath#SignaturePos__></SPAN> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; = BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: = black"><B>From:</B> <A title=davidlovepianos@earthlink.net href="mailto:davidlovepianos@earthlink.net">David Love</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A = title=pianotech@ptg.org href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">pianotech@ptg.org</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, October 22, = 2001 1:30 PM</DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: more on this = temperament thing</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>Terry:</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>One other comment on the SATIII and the = DOB.  As Jim Coleman has pointed out you can use the DOB on the fly, so to = speak, adjusting it as you go depending on the piano.  If you do this, = however, you must start tuning from A4 outward.  Changes in the = DOB will have no effect on A4 but will have an increasing effect as you = go out.  If you start tuning at A0 and tune chromatically upward = and discover that the octaves around A3 need to be narrowed then the DOB = will change the settings most of those notes that you've already tuned.   Going up from A4, of course, would not be a problem.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>And just to emphasize that stretch settings = are very piano dependent, I tuned 6' Kawai grand this = morning.  The FAC numbers were quite low, on the order of 6.7, 5.7, 5.8.  = This setting put C8 around 31.  I found that I had to increase the = DOB to about +.3 to get the amount of stretch I wanted.  So it can = definitely go both ways.  </FONT></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; = BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- = </DIV> <DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: = black"><B>From:</B> <A title=mfarrel2@tampabay.rr.com href="mailto:mfarrel2@tampabay.rr.com">Farrell</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A = title=pianotech@ptg.org href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">pianotech@ptg.org</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> October 21, 2001 2:53 = PM</DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: more on this = temperament thing</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV>Thanks for your comments David. I follow pretty much exactly = what you described in your post below when I tune. I usually test some = sample octaves all across the keyboard to get a feel for what I will be = wanting to do with the DOB. I have all of Jim Coleman's info and have = studied it extensively. When I said that I wonder what I should be doing with = my octaves, I was referring to the upper treble (as in your original = post) and was indicating that I know very little about upper treble = stretch theory - why some tuners stretch more than others, why some = stretch a big piano on a stage more than a small piano in a home. When techs are talking about these various amounts of = stretch, what are they doing with the amount of beating in octaves and = double and triple octaves way up in the high treble? Are we talking only = about putting a half or a quarter bpm in some type of octave, or lots of = beats or what? Any thoughts would be welcome.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Terry Farrell</DIV> <DIV> <SPAN id=__#Ath#SignaturePos__></SPAN> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; = BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- = </DIV> <DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: = black"><B>From:</B> <A title=davidlovepianos@earthlink.net href="mailto:davidlovepianos@earthlink.net">David Love</A> = </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A = title=pianotech@ptg.org href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">pianotech@ptg.org</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, October 21, = 2001 2:50 PM</DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: more on this = temperament thing</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>As a general rule I am finding that small = pianos require an entry of -.5 on the DOB and as the pianos get bigger = that number decreases.  But you can measure the stretch before = you start by tuning a double octave (after entering the FAC = numbers and saving), and testing aurally to see if it is where you want = it.  The SAT uses A4 as the fixed point so keep that in mind when you = choose your test double octave.  I usually try and test the double = octave to not include any wound strings.  If the double octave is = too wide, input a negative number on the DOB and change notes (step = up, step down) to implement the change.  Test again.  When you = get it where you want it go ahead and start tuning.  When tuning = with the SAT I start in the tenor and go up (when tuning aurally, I start = from the temperament and go down).  When I am done with the = treble I usually direct tune the bass as the machine sometimes has = problems across the break and I don't always agree with its choices for = stretch in the bass.  Jim Coleman has made several contributions to = the list regarding use of the DOB.  I recommend you search the = archives and check them out.  </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>David Love</FONT> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: = 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- = </DIV> <DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: = black"><B>From:</B> <A title=mfarrel2@tampabay.rr.com href="mailto:mfarrel2@tampabay.rr.com">Farrell</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A = title=pianotech@ptg.org href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">pianotech@ptg.org</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> October 21, 2001 = 11:11 AM</DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: more on = this temperament thing</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV>I would sure like to hear more on this topic. As a tuner = still on a steep learning curve, I wonder just what I should be doing = with my octaves, but I find that the SAT III is either right = where I wish it to be, or sometimes I do find that it seems to have = calculated a tuning with too much stretch, and I have to enter negative = numbers in the DOB to slow the beating down - occasionally quite a = bit.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Terry Farrell <SPAN id=__#Ath#SignaturePos__></SPAN> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: = 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- = </DIV> <DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: = black"><B>From:</B> <A title=davidlovepianos@earthlink.net href="mailto:davidlovepianos@earthlink.net">David Love</A> = </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A = title=pianotech@ptg.org href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">pianotech@ptg.org</A> = </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, October = 21, 2001 11:25 AM</DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: more on = this temperament thing</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>My experience suggests that C8 at 43+ is = not a conservative stretch but a fairly healthy one.  To my = ear, I usually reduce the stretch (on the SATIII via the = DOB).   On concert grands I seem to prefer it a = bit under 40.   On smaller grands and uprights, in the mid 30's.  Of course the general scaling does make a difference.  But generally I find the standard setting = on a SATIII over stretches.  I am curious what other = people find.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>David Love</FONT> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: = 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message = ----- </DIV> <DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; = font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=dm.porritt@verizon.net href="mailto:dm.porritt@verizon.net">David M. = Porritt</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=pianotech@ptg.org href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">pianotech@ptg.org</A> = </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> October 21, = 2001 7:40 AM</DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: more = on this temperament thing</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV>Bill:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You've talked quite a bit of your "tempered octaves" = but as one who has seen everything from 2:1 octaves to = outrageously stretched octaves I don't know what kind of stretch you're = talking about.  Could you give us some numbers so we can know = what you mean by tempered octaves?  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For example, when I tune a Steinway D my C6 is = stretched to 5.06, C7 is 16.11, and C8 is 43.84.  This is what I = consider a conservative tuning.  What kind of numbers do you get?  On any piano, just measure your C6, 7, & 8 = and tell us what model piano it is, and how it stretches with your = tempered octaves.  That would be very informative.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thanks,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>dave<BR><FONT face=Arial size=2>*********** REPLY = SEPARATOR ***********<BR><BR>On 10/21/01 at 7:19 AM Billbrpt@AOL.COM = wrote:</FONT></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: = #000000 2px solid"><FONT face=arial,helvetica><FONT size=2>In a message dated = 10/21/01 6:07:55 AM Central Daylight Time, = davidlovepianos@earthlink.net (David Love) writes: <BR><BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; = BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px" TYPE="CITE">That being said, if the pianist needs an = altered tuning to create excitement, he should practice more.</BLOCKQUOTE><BR></FONT><FONT lang=0 face=Arial = color=#000000 size=3 FAMILY="SANSSERIF"><BR>It's = always been my belief, as a piano technician that the better prepared = the piano, the better equipped the artist is.  Remember = that I have not advocated *HT* as such for Jazz.  To you, = this implies *altered* tuning which means something quite = noticeably different and thus creates an *interference* with what = you do rather than provide an enhancement. <BR><BR>I don't know = if you can or have tried my EBVT but as I have designed it = (with Tempered Octaves), it is meant to enhance your playing, = not shock or disturb your musical sensibilities.  It is = meant to provide definition, texture and clarity, not weird, = jarring and shocking dissonances.  If the EBVT is still to *altered* for you, I believe you might benefit from the = Marpurg (also with my Tempered Octaves system).  I will = give your piano an uncanny clean, crisp and clear sound but = absolutely will not create any distinction between keys. <BR><BR></FONT><FONT lang=0 face=Arial = color=#000000 size=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF">Bill Bremmer RPT <BR>Madison, Wisconsin</FONT><FONT size=2 = Arial></BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></FONT><PRE>_____________________________ David M. Porritt dporritt@mail.smu.edu Meadows School of the Arts Southern Methodist University Dallas, TX 75275 _____________________________</PRE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE= ></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>