<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en"> <html>   Billbrpt@AOL.COM wrote: <blockquote TYPE=CITE>In a message dated 5/29/01 8:09:25 PM Central Daylight Time, kswafford@kc.rr.com (Kent Swafford) writes:     <blockquote TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">On 5/29/01 7:25 AM, "Michael Jorgensen" <Michael.Jorgensen@cmich.edu> wrote: > Hello, >    Steinway B,  F2-A flat 2 minor third tested using C5 as strike tone > yields a significantly faster beat speed than listening to the beatspeed > by playing the minor third by itself.  This happens with single strings > or when testing the whole unison. >    What is the reason???  F2 is the lowest plain string with weird > inharmonicity perhaps?  How can the strike tone clearly yield a > different beatspeed?  Perhaps Virgil Smith has an answer?? > -Mike Jorgensen What would the beat rate have been had you used D#5 as a strike tone? Perhaps the 7:6 coincidence was weirdly predominating over the 6:5 coincidence when the F2-G#2 minor third was played? Kent Swafford</blockquote> </blockquote> I would think that you perhaps have been fooled into thinking there is a different beat rate when there actually isn't. I run into what I think you are describing all the time..whether its with ghosting or just listening to intervals themselves. First thing that strikes my mind is that there are always at least two sets of coincidents (except at the higher treble section) that are pretty easy to hear. Often I find this kind of thing is the result of the coincident pair an octave above that which I want to listen to. When you play an simple interval, the loudness of any given coincident pairs beating is going to be largely a product of the relative volume each string generates for that frequency. But when you ghost an interval, you are pushing any coincidents those two strings have in common with your strike tone. The strike tone also has variance with regards to the strength of its partials. It can be that using the strike tone excited another partial pair then the one you wanted to listen for to a greater degree then when you play the interval itself. Now this in itself may not seem to present a problem... but differing coincidents sounding at the same time can be easy or difficult to separate for a variety of reasons. To take an oversimplified example.... take an octaves 4:2 and 8:4.  Say (for the sake of demonstration) that the 8:4 beats exactly twice as fast as the 4:2  and is just a bit louder. This situation is going to make it much more difficult to sort out the 4:2 then if the 8:4 beats say 1.6 times faster and is quiet. When a two or more pairs of coincidents beat  at sympathetic beat rates... they can be difficult to sort out.  There are of course several other ways in which several different beating coincidents can interfere with each other. Ghosting can cause this kind of situation because of the relative strengths of the strike notes own partial ladder. In the above example if the strike note had a particularly strong partial coincident to the 8:4 pair for the interval, and a very weak partial for the 4:2, then chances are you would get this effect. All this is one of the reasons we use several differing ways of listening to beat rates...have different tests to confirm. And its also one of the great uses of direct referencing with ETD's. That visual "reality" in the face of some aural "fog" can be really great ear training. Richard Brekne RPT, N.P.T.F. Bergen, Norway <A HREF="mailto:rbrekne@broadpark.no">mailto:rbrekne@broadpark.no</A>  </html>