<HTML>In a message dated 12/29/01 10:09:11 AM Central Standard Time, dnereson@dimensional.com (Dave Nereson) writes: <BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">as a string player, I can assure you they're never that close, yet the music still sounds fine, </BLOCKQUOTE> An interesting post which brings up several points.  OK, I'll give you 25 cents.  I based my 20 cent observation on a particular occasion when I was given a Korg tuner by the conductor.  I was singing in the Symphony Chorus and we had the first note of a particular piece.  I was to discreetly sound that pitch so that the singers would have a reference before singing, much the same as someone going up to a piano and playing the starting pitch. While the orchestra was rehearsing another piece, I turned the Korg tuner on.  It was one of those that can sense which pitch is being played and the needle would point to exact A-440 or any deviation up to +/- 50 cents.  I noted that the needle was swinging happily +/- 20 cents but this was a professional orchestra and the music sounded good and pleasing. The so called Pythagorean 3rd which is 21.5 cents wide is considered to be at the threshold of being intolerably out of tune to many people today.  Certainly a 25 cent 3rd sounds "sour".  I can't imagine a wind or string ensemble where one player was either 25 cents above or below pitch sounding acceptably "in tune".  I particularly can't imagine it in light of what some musicians on this List have said about playing and thinking in "Just" intonation. One point to consider is that the very best orchestras and choruses, the ones you hear on nationwide broadcasts, in film scores and on the recordings you see offered in catalogues and record stores have musicians who play considerably more precisely,  in both pitch and rhythm, than amateur or school orchestras.  We've all heard that one loud trumpet or voice that consistently rides the bottom portion of the pitch envelope.  It's terrible. Make no mistake about it, precision on piano tuning is as important as it is in musicianship.  The fact that most people "can't tell" is what saves most of us from a complaint about the tuning failing after a too short period of time. Most people are still under the assumption that music would sound best in tune if each and every pitch heard, regardless of which instrument or voice it comes from would match the table of frequencies provided by the 19th Century scientist, Hermann Helmholtz.  It simply is not true.  However, it will take some time to dispell this notion.  The Encyclopedia Britannica still says the ET and Well Tempered Tuning are synonymous.  I know, I just looked it up last night.  Sheesh! There are many who are beginning to realize now that a piano tuned to what has been considered the epitome of perfection, the consensus tuning known as the "Master" tuning which is constructed by a team of PTG Examiners is not really the very best sound possible.  It may be the most neutral and smoothest sound but not necessarily the most musically appealing. I vividly recall trying to explain what I do with temperament and octave stretch to one of our local opera benefactors.  She exclaimed, hand upon he chest, "But wouldn't an *UNEQUAL* tuning throw the singers *OFF*???!!!"  I suppose she imagined a scale where the notes were mixed up and chords which were not at all as expected. I tried to explain to her that the difference I make in the piano tuning is an *internal* one, that makes what comes from the piano ultimately be the most in tune sound and a perfect model of the music for the singers or any other instruments to perform with.  She listened but her final comment was, "Well, we always had a piano when I was growing up and I'm *sure* it was *always* in ET and I'm also *sure* the octaves were always pure!"  I didn't try to tell her that it probably wasn't really that way or anything about Reverse Well.  I just asked her to listen to the rehearsal and tell me afterwards what she thought. That didn't help much either.  She did say that it sounded fine, very nice, in fact but added, "I guess I just don't understand all of this".  I'm afraid that I left her feeling that she just couldn't tell the difference between a piano which was in tune or not.  She never spoke to me again after that, just glared at me whenever she attended a rehearsal. It was one of the incidents which taught me that as far as these finer points of piano preparation go, it is often best not to disclose anything at all about techniques.  The great Golden Hammer Award winner, Norman Neblett RPT has often stressed that point.  The only thing he ever says about a piano he has just finished preparing is "There it is!".  If questioned further, he simply repeats that phrase as he is leaving. As for precision in piano tuning being important, it may be true that a small error here or there is not very important.  But what I realized long ago was that if I could take the *envelope* of what might be considered acceptable and direct the differences I know how to make from theoretical ET and octaves very precisely, I can make a very powerful difference and thereby create a truly stunning effect. I would bet on the EBVT with Tempered Octaves any place or time being received more favorably than what is considered the very best standard practice.  I'm working on it and hope to be able to present it in the proper setting at a PTG Convention or Regional Seminar as soon as the people who organize those events are able to let down their own defensive posture and allow it to happen. Bill Bremmer RPT Madison, Wisconsin <A HREF="http://www.billbremmer.com/">Click here: -=w w w . b i l l b r e m m e r . c o m =-</A> </HTML>