<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; = charset=iso-8859-1"> <META content="MSHTML 6.00.2800.1264" name=GENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=#ffffff> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I have a Sears basement-style = humidifier in my shop with and "electronic" humidistat. It is quite accurate - I'm really = pleased with it. The older dehumidifier I had before this one had a garbage = humidistat - that is why is ran it off the DC H2 unit. I your humidifier has a functional humidistat, then that is great. The H2 unit may be something to = consider for someone that has a humidifier or dehumidifier that is not equipped = with a decent humidistat - BUT, no reason to place the H2 under the piano! Put = it out in the room where it can do its job in keeping the room at the desired = RH level.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Terry Farrell</FONT></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; = BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: = black"><B>From:</B> <A title=sarah@gendernet.org = href="mailto:sarah@gendernet.org">Sarah Fox</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A = title=pianotech@ptg.org href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">Pianotech</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, January 14, = 2004 7:37 PM</DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Where did the RH = Go</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Hi Terry,</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I use a Kenmore model 42.14125 unit, = which has its own internal humidistat (so current draw is not a = limitation).  The total draw of the system is quite low, at 37W (0.33A), so it = could be plugged into a DC humidistat -- or the GE humidistat I use.  The = default humidity setpoint is something like 60%RH, so it would cycle on and = off satisfactorily with the under-piano humidistat.  There are much = cheaper ultrasonic units that don't have humidistats.  These would be = even better suited for being switched on and off by the under-piano humidistat -- = at the end of a very long extension cord, of course!  :-)</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Peace,</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Sarah</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; = BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: = black"><B>From:</B> <A title=mfarrel2@tampabay.rr.com href="mailto:mfarrel2@tampabay.rr.com">Farrell</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A = title=pianotech@ptg.org href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">Pianotech</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, January 14, = 2004 7:01 PM</DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Where did the RH = Go</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>What type of room humidifier are = you using? How many watts does it use? I think the H2 humidistats are rated up to = 600 watts. I have ran a Sears basement-type dehumidifier off a = humidistat in the past. That would solve your troubles for when you = travel.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Terry Farrell</FONT></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; = BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- = </DIV> <DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: = black"><B>From:</B> <A title=anrebe@zianet.com = href="mailto:anrebe@zianet.com">Andrew & Rebeca Anderson</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A = title=pianotech@ptg.org href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">Pianotech</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, January = 14, 2004 10:34 AM</DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Where did the = RH Go</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV>My wife and I regulate humidity (in winter) through = the whole house with two humidifiers and a gauge on a bookshelf by the = piano.  This requires some attentiveness, and is affected by = outdoor weather.  The problem comes when we travel.  We were = away over the holidays for two weeks and when we returned the humidity was = in the high single digits.  The piano sounded horrible.  We got = humidity up in a few days and in two weeks I retuned.  We = have developed a rather low-tolerance for out-of-tune.  <BR>The = issue is practicality.  Most customers will not go through the trouble = of monitering RH and refilling, turning on/off their humidifiers on a = daily basis.  Once a piano is up to humidity, the DC will usually = last a week often more, it only has a small environment to keep-up.  = The humidity migrates through the wood, even in a grand piano pin = torque is affected (closed lids do help in extreme environments).  = Buying a room humidifier that has a remote-control humidistat will cost = more than a DC system, although it would benefit all the wooden furniture = too.  I have discussed this with clients and some have chosen to get a = cheap hardware-store hygrometer and start running a room = humidifier.  They last about halfway to the next tuning and then want a DC system or = believe they can tolerate the effects on the piano.<BR><BR>Andrew = Anderson<BR>Las Cruces, NM<BR><BR>At 06:40 AM 1/13/2004 -0500, you wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE class=cite cite="" type="cite"><FONT = face=arial>I don't think anyone is questioning the effects of RH changes on the = tuning of a piano.</FONT><BR> <BR><FONT face=arial>I'm with Sarah and = feel that proper full environment humidity control is the best way to go - = better than a full DC installation.</FONT><BR> <BR><FONT = face=arial>I think where the arguement comes in is the fact that probably 99% = of full environment humidity control systems are improperly designed, = poorly functioning, turned off and windows opened up, turned off over = the holidays and summer, etc., etc. <BR> <BR>But this does not = change the fact that if one installs a proper full environment humidity = control system that holds the RH constant within a few percent, it will = be more effective than a full DC.<BR></FONT> <BR><FONT = face=arial>And don't forget that even if you hard-wire the DC system into the wall, = who is ever going to notice that the circuit breaker tripped 15 months = ago and the piano hasn't had any humidity control since that time?</FONT><BR> <BR><FONT face=arial>In my shop I have a = Sears basement-type dehumidifier. It keeps the shop right at 45% RH = (within a percent or two). I never varies. How in the world is a DC unit = on a piano in my shop going to work better, or do anything at all = besides vapor, dry, vapor, dry, vapor, dry, etc., etc.?</FONT><BR> <BR><FONT face=arial>So I guess the = bottom line is that if one is willing to set up a proper full environment = humidity control system that holds the RH constant within a few percent, = that is the best way to go. From a practical standpoint, knowing that = 90-some% of full environment humidity control systems are not going to be = real effective, the full DC-type system is the way to go (they DO = work quite well). And as someone pointed out, from a practical standpoint a = full DC-type system in a piano which is in an environment modified by = a full environment humidity control systems is the best around. </FONT><BR> <BR><FONT face=arial>Flame Suite Tighly Zipped,</FONT><BR> <BR><FONT face=arial>Terry Farrell</FONT><BR> <BR><FONT face=arial size=2>----- = Original Message ----- </FONT><BR><FONT face=arial size=2>From: = "DIANE HOFSTETTER" <<A = href="mailto:dianepianotuner@msn.com">dianepianotuner@msn.com</A>></= FONT><BR><FONT face=arial size=2>To: <<A = href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">pianotech@ptg.org</A>></FONT><BR><FO= NT face=arial size=2>Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2004 2:51 AM</FONT><BR><FONT face=arial size=2>Subject: Re: Where did = the RH Go</FONT><BR><FONT face=arial><BR></FONT><FONT face=arial = size=2>> Sarah,<BR>> <BR>> For fourteen years now my partner and I = have been measuring and graphing the <BR>> tuning on every piano immediately before we tune it.   We also record the = <BR>> relative humidity and temperature most of the time, whether it = has a <BR>> Damppchaser installation or not, and if it is = functioning correctly.<BR>> <BR>> Then when we next tune the piano and = record all the data again, we have a <BR>> way of understanding how = to service the piano to make the tuning as stable <BR>> as possible.<BR>> <BR>> Over the years I have had fun with a = variety of experiments.  One day I <BR>> arrived to tune a piano = in a room that is routinely kept unheated with no <BR>> climate = control in the piano.  The maintenance people had just turned on the = <BR>> heat before I arrived and a stream of warm area was shooting out = of the <BR>> register about ten feet away.<BR>> <BR>> I was = dismayed; the heat should have been turned on hours before.  I knew = <BR>> the tuning could not be reliable.  I went ahead and graphed = the tuning.  As <BR>> soon as I finished that graph, I = remeasured the tuning and graphed it again. <BR>>   Then I = remeasured and regraphed, and then once again.  I ended up with a = <BR>> graph showing four distinctly separate lines of the tuning as it = changed <BR>> with the relative humidity and temperature for each = line carefully recorded.<BR>> <BR>> There is no question in my = mind that changes in relative humidity affect the <BR>> tuning dramatically and that a Damppchaser system does an excellent job = of <BR>> helping control that.  I have numerous graphs to = show it does.<BR>> <BR>> Diane<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> = <BR>> <BR>> Diane Hofstetter<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> = <BR>> <BR>> >From: "Sarah Fox" <<A = href="mailto:sarah@gendernet.org">sarah@gendernet.org</A>><BR>> >Reply-To: Pianotech <<A = href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">pianotech@ptg.org</A>><BR>> >To: "Pianotech" <<A = href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">pianotech@ptg.org</A>><BR>> >Subject: Re: Where did the RH Go<BR>> >Date: Mon, 12 = Jan 2004 21:48:30 -0500<BR>> ><BR>> >Hi Don,<BR>> = ><BR>> > > I did not say your system didn't work. What I said was = a DC system would<BR>> > > work even better.<BR>> = ><BR>> >Perhaps.  Perhaps not.  I don't mean to be = argumentative on this point.  <BR>> >I'm<BR>> >really asking = a question here:  Have you (or has anyone else) done<BR>> >measurements with a good, accurate hygrometer on a complete = DC grand<BR>> >installation, during dry ambient conditions, = showing that humidity is <BR>> >indeed<BR>> >evenly = distributed all over the soundboard, both under and on top, and in<BR>> = >the action cavity?  Also, have the same measurements been done = inside the<BR>> >piano with a closed lid and inside the action = cavity during predominantly<BR>> >dehumidifying periods?  In = other words, are DC's claims fully <BR>> >substantiated,<BR>> = >as determined empirically with a hygrometer?  I've heard lots = of claims<BR>> >regarding stability of pitch.  That's = all well and good, of course.<BR>> >However, how well does the DC = system regulate humidity (in contrast to<BR>> >pitch)?<BR>> ><BR>> > > I do recommend room type humdifiers as = well--but only to "assist" a DC<BR>> > > unit. If it is a choice = of one or the other the DC provides much better<BR>> > > year = round control than is generally possible with a room type. There = <BR>> >are<BR>> > > exceptions, but they are very = rare.<BR>> ><BR>> >This sounds like a reasonable approach.<BR>> = ><BR>> > > Do you have measurements for the summer = time? Where I am I have <BR>> >documented<BR>> > > as = low as 4% and as high as 84%.<BR>> ><BR>> >Without = humidification, humidity levels inside my house vary from 27% in <BR>> >the<BR>> >winter to 67% in the late fall.  I have = forced heat and refrigerated A/C,<BR>> >BTW.  I suspect = humidity levels are far different in other parts of the<BR>> = >state.  I'm in Central Ohio.  In the lake areas, humidity is undoubtedly<BR>> >much higher during moderate = weather.  Also, I have no idea what humidity<BR>> >levels occur in other = people's homes here in Columbus.  (I don't service<BR>> >their = pianos. <grin>)<BR>> ><BR>> > > I would love to = have a controller for a DC type system that had much<BR>> > > = narrower limits. I know, for example, that rare bird hatcheries have = <BR>> >units<BR>> > > that are calibrated to 1/10 of one = percent humidity that power an<BR>> > > "electronic" fan (read = no blades--some sort of vibrating plate) combined<BR>> > > = with an ultrasonic humidifer. I'd love to get my pinkies on one!<BR>> = ><BR>> >Well, I can't boast 0.1% limits with my system = (WOW!!), but I do quite a <BR>> >bit<BR>> >better than the = specs DC boasts.  I did a 100% non-DC-brand installation on<BR>> = >my concert grand, using a GE humidistat that cycles the system adjustably<BR>> >between 40 - 44% (or occasionally as = widely as 39 - 45%) when the ambient <BR>> >RH<BR>> >is in the = upper 40's.  The installation is fairly recent, so I haven't = yet<BR>> >been able to observe its behavior at higher humidity = levels.  I'll give you<BR>> >an update in the spring if you're interested.<BR>> ><BR>> >Peace,<BR>> = >Sarah<BR>> ><BR>> ><BR>> ><BR>> ><BR>> >_______________________________________________<BR>> >pianotech list info: <A = href="https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives">http://www.ptg.org= /mailman/listinfo/pianotech</A></FONT><BR><FONT face=arial size=2>> <BR>> = _________________________________________________________________<BR>>= Scope out the new MSN Plus Internet Software - optimizes dial-up = to the max! <BR>>    <A = href="http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-us&page=byoa/plus&ST= =1">http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-us&page=byoa/plus&ST== 1</A></FONT><BR><FONT face=arial size=2>> <BR>> _______________________________________________<BR>> = pianotech list info: <A = href="https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives">http://www.ptg.org= /mailman/listinfo/pianotech</A></FONT><BR><FONT face=arial size=2>> </FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>=