<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; = charset=iso-8859-1"> <META content="MSHTML 6.00.2800.1400" name=GENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=#ffffff> <DIV><FONT face=Tahoma size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=069385606-23042004><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff = size=2>Bernhard, Stéphane .</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=069385606-23042004><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff = size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=069385606-23042004><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff = size=2>Thanks for this analysis and the nice presentation.</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=069385606-23042004></SPAN><SPAN = class=069385606-23042004><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=069385606-23042004><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff = size=2>I write as I see we are in the high spheres of piano conception and = analysis there so we have lost most of the passengers during the fly = !</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=069385606-23042004><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff = size=2><G></FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=069385606-23042004><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff = size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=069385606-23042004><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff = size=2>Joke apart I've heard the change in the spectra between the 2 samples also. </FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=069385606-23042004><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff = size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=069385606-23042004><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff = size=2>That remember me of something we found on some pianos (brand undefined) = <H> . It is well possible that it is considered related to hammers because = the  voice try to mask that parasitic noise, and finish with an overnnedled suspension .</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=069385606-23042004><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff = size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=069385606-23042004><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff = size=2>I understand it can be called "kissing noise" but I try to stay more = discrete when kissing !</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=069385606-23042004><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff = size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=069385606-23042004><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff = size=2>Can't the longitudinal waves modify the hammer contact ratio , and is it = considered in Minimens ? (because I relate this effect also to a "cardboard tone" = where I feel a less efficient spectra, with more impact noise.</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=069385606-23042004><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff = size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=069385606-23042004><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff = size=2>Isaac OLEG</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=069385606-23042004><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff = size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=069385606-23042004><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff = size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=069385606-23042004><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff = size=2>P.S.</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=069385606-23042004></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=069385606-23042004></SPAN><SPAN = class=069385606-23042004><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><H> stand for "Helmet" like = in Flame Suit</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=069385606-23042004><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff = size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=069385606-23042004><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff = size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=069385606-23042004><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff = size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=069385606-23042004><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff = size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT = face=Tahoma size=2>-----Message d'origine-----<BR><B>De :</B> Stéphane = Hanriat [mailto:stephane.hanriat@free.fr]<BR><B>Envoyé :</B> mercredi 21 = avril 2004 22:25<BR><B>À :</B> Bernhard Stopper; Pianotech; oleg-i@noos.fr<BR><B>Objet :</B> Re: Longitudinal partial on Kawai = G-23 string<BR><BR></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Hello Bernhard,</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Thanks a lot for the = analysis.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I'll try to get more accurate = measurement for the string. I'll try to find out a micrometer tool, or may be</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I'll ask my Kawai tech if he can = provide us with precise numbers.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I would be interested to look at the = graphics for the diameters you are recommending for comparison.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Actually, the parasitic noise is = clearly a whistling, as you pointed out.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I think it is worth to go deeper in the = study, although I would be surprised that Kawai made such a</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>design flaw, but who knows.... If this = is the case, I can predict that this subject might make some "noise" !</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Greetings,</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Stephane</FONT></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; = BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: = black"><B>From:</B> <A title=b98tu@t-online.de = href="mailto:b98tu@t-online.de">Bernhard Stopper</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A = title=stephane.hanriat@free.fr href="mailto:stephane.hanriat@free.fr">Stéphane Hanriat</A> ; <A title=pianotech@ptg.org = href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">Pianotech</A> ; <A title=oleg-i@noos.fr = href="mailto:oleg-i@noos.fr">oleg-i@noos.fr</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, April 19, 2004 = 12:21 AM</DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Analysis of plain = wire string/wound wire break on aSteinwayModel Bwith MiniMens 1.0.6</DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT><FONT = face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2></FONT><BR></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Dear Stephane,</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>After i entered the string measures = that you sent me, MiniMens reports clearly that this a problematic string = length/diameter setting. The Longitudinal wave matches very close  the 13. = transversal partial, what results in a strong resonance = effect. (speaking length 1058 mm, 0,975, plain wire, copper 0,5 mm)</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><IMG alt="" hspace=0 src="cid:069385606@23042004-161b" = align=baseline border=0></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=1>The three pointers in the = "Longitudinal Freq." meter representing the first 3 longitudinal partials in the = transversal partial spectrum (represented by the meters scale, transversal = partials reported from partial Nr. 12-48, the first longitudinal partial = has a frequency of 1290 Hz. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=1>The meter indicates, that the = longitudinal partial matches slightly above the 13. transversal = partial.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Physically, longitudinal = partials near to Odd transversal partials produce a strong resonance with 2 times = the frequency of the odd transversal partial, what means in this example, = the 1. longitudinal partial has a<STRONG> resonance with the 26. transversal</STRONG> partial. Due to inharmonicity of the 26. = partial, this occurs if the frequency of the longitdunal partial is slightly = above the 13. transversal partial.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>In the sound simulation produced by = the MiniMens Simulator one can clearly here the whistling produced by the = longitudinal resonance.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>listen to the sound by clicking = the link:</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><A = href="http://www.piano-stopper.de/dl/Kawai_G23_0,975_0,5.wav">http://ww= w.piano-stopper.de/dl/Kawai_G23_0,975_0,5.wav</A></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>a solution would be to change the = diameters to 1,0 mm for the core wire and 0,475 mm for the copper = diameter.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>(inharmonicity must be checked with = the neighbour keys)</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>what would sound like = this:</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><A = href="http://www.piano-stopper.de/dl/Kawai_G23_1,0_0,475.wav">http://ww= w.piano-stopper.de/dl/Kawai_G23_1,0_0,475.wav</A></FONT></DIV></FONT></DI= V> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Regards,</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Bernhard Stopper</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>info about the MiniMens = Simulator:</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><A = href="http://www.piano-stopper.de">www.piano-stopper.de</A></FONT></DIV= > <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; = BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: = black"><B>From:</B> <A title=stephane.hanriat@free.fr href="mailto:stephane.hanriat@free.fr">Stéphane Hanriat</A> = </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A = title=b98tu@t-online.de href="mailto:b98tu@t-online.de">Bernhard Stopper</A> ; <A title=oleg-i@noos.fr href="mailto:oleg-i@noos.fr">Isaac Oleg</A> = </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, April 18, 2004 = 9:15 PM</DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Analysis of = plain wire string/wound wire break on aSteinwayModel Bwith MiniMens 1.0.6</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Hello Bernhard,</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Please find hereafter the = measurements I made for the note G23 (the note for which the kissing noise is the most audible):</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>- speaking length : 1058 = mm</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>- steel diameter : between 0.9 = & 1.0 mm (may be 0.95 mm) - section looks square where covered with copper.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>- total wire diameter (includin = copper wraping) : 1.9 mm (copper should then be around 0.5 mm diameter)</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>- strike point : 133 mm from the agraffe.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Hope you'll be able to sdo = something with those information.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>All the best,</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Stephane</FONT></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; = BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- = </DIV> <DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: = black"><B>From:</B> <A title=b98tu@t-online.de = href="mailto:b98tu@t-online.de">Bernhard Stopper</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A = title=pianotech@ptg.org href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">Pianotech</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, April 09, = 2004 10:06 PM</DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Analysis of = plain wire string/wound wire break on aSteinwayModel Bwith MiniMens = 1.0.6</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Hello Stephane,</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>is it possible for you to = send me length and diameters for the keys that causing the problems?</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I will do a dynamic simulation = and a sound simulation with the Minimens to find out what might be the case. = Please let me know also what kind of steel wire Kawai is using. MiniMens = can do a sound simulation that reports also the longitudinal waves. I = rather think it is a problem caused by the longitudinal waves (as Isaac = Oleg metioned also earlier), but to do an exact simulation, it is = necessary to know the value of youngs modulus of the core wire. (I actually = only have it for Röslau steel, it varies from 201 to 207 kN/mm² = depending on the diameter). I "measured" youngs modulus of Röslau steel by = simulating different diameters with the Minimens  Simulator and measured = inharmonicity on real instruments with same settings until the = spectra fit.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I don´t think that the problems = are caused by the multiple contacts, because they are normal for the lower keys. = on the lowest octave the hammer does bouncing with the string up to 3 or = 4 times, thats normal.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Best regards,</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Bernhard</FONT></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; = BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- = </DIV> <DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: = black"><B>From:</B> <A title=stephane.hanriat@free.fr href="mailto:stephane.hanriat@free.fr">Stéphane Hanriat</A> = </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A = title=pianotech@ptg.org href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">Pianotech</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, April 09, = 2004 8:21 PM</DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Analysis of = plain wire string/wound wire break on a SteinwayModel Bwith MiniMens = 1.0.6</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Hello Bernhard,</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Very interesting post. I'm = wondering if the "contact ratio" has something related to the "kissing noise" = effect I've observed on most of the Kawai piano I've played. Please see = below the post I sent to the list on the subject. I've working with Kawai = Europe & Japan to try understanding the root cause, but they were = not able to explain this parasitic noise to me, just saying that this is = well known and likely due to hammer condition ??? I've never been = convinced about that explanation, since only very few notes are impacted = (few first notes below the break tri-cord/bi-cord) and only on the = 1.78m and 1.86m piano...</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Personnally, as an engineer, I = already made the hypothesis of multiple contacts with the strings in that = range, creating this parasitic noise (see below)...</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I would be very much interested = to have your feedback on this point.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Cheers,</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Stephane Hanriat - Owner of = Shigeru Kawai SK3</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial = size=2>______________________________________________</FONT></DIV> <DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Hello List,</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I'm back with another topic I = would like to share with you.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>During the process of selecting = my Shigeru piano, I played a lot of Kawai instruments, and I found a = strange noise impacting very few notes, but always the same notes : 23, 24 and = 25. The noise looks like a whistling appearing at the attack, and is = very easy to ear when playing a non legato trill at pianissimo. This noise = is clearly audible on most of RX-2, SK2 (1.78 m), RX-3 and SK3 = (1.86 m). Very difficult to ear it on larger instrument. RX-6 or SK6 (2.12 = m) do not have it.  - sorry for the metric unit -:)</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>I had extensive discussions on = that with our french MPA who is now an expert to determine whether an = instrument is having the noise or not. We have contacted Kawai in Japan. = They replied that this is well known as "kissing noise" and that = mostly all prestigious brands are facing this problem that originates from = hammer conditions. Kawai also told us that Steinway has = extensively studied the topic without identifying the root cause ; and when = the problem is creating inconvenience at playing, Steinway is = replacing the hammers...</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>We made some experiments at the = french Kawai show room on some RX, without being capable to find a = reliable fix. Some pianos were not having this kissing noise, but most of = them had it in the showroom.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>When I play grand pianos in = this size range, I always discreetly check the stuff... but I've not seen = this kissing noise as present as on the Kawai. I can tell you I've = been cautious when selecting my Shigeru, so it took me 2 years to = find an SK3 almost free from kissing noise (but not completely = free).</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>If some of you have an = explanation and/or a fix, I would be very excited to learn this (and lot of MPAs too, = believe me).</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Cheers,</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Stephane Hanriat, the french = guy who loves the Shigeru's.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> </DIV></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: = 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"><FONT face=Arial = size=2></FONT> </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE= ></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>