<html xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" = xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" = xmlns:w="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" = xmlns:st1="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" = xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"> <head> <meta http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; = charset=us-ascii"> <meta name=Generator content="Microsoft Word 11 (filtered medium)"> <o:SmartTagType namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" = name="PersonName"/>  <style>  </style> </head> <body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=blue> <div class=Section1> <p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span = style='font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I would not suggest = <u>practicing</u> your tuning on someone else’s piano… especially if you want to = stay friends with them.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span = style='font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> <p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span = style='font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>R.Cromwell<o:p></o:p></span></font><= /p> <p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span = style='font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Cromwell's Piano Service – = Detroit,MI<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span = style='font-size: 10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> <div> <div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font = size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'> <hr size=2 width="100%" align=center tabindex=-1> </span></font></div> <p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span = style='font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font = size=2 face=Tahoma><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'> = <st1:PersonName w:st="on">pianotech-bounces@ptg.org</st1:PersonName> = [mailto:<st1:PersonName w:st="on">pianotech-bounces@ptg.org</st1:PersonName>] <b><span style='font-weight:bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Matthew Todd<br> <b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, = September 29, 2004 2:13 PM<br> <b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <st1:PersonName = w:st="on">Pianotech</st1:PersonName><br> <b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> Re: Octave = Tuning</span></font><o:p></o:p></p> </div> <p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span = style='font-size: 12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p> <div> <p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span = style='font-size: 12.0pt'>Thanks for the replies.  I am practicing my tuning on a = 1913 Hinze upright.  Is that doing me more harm than good here?  I think = it is hard to hear lots of stuff on that piano, but then again, I am a = beginner, so I don't know if it's more the piano or more me not having trained ears = yet.  I know lots of families with much newer pianos, should I try to hook up = with one of them and maybe work it out with them to practice my tuning on = it?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span = style='font-size: 12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span = style='font-size: 12.0pt'>Matthew<br> <br> <b><i><span = style='font-weight:bold;font-style:italic'>BobDavis88@aol.com</span></i= ></b> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #1010FF = 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt; margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'> <div> <p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span = style='font-size: 12.0pt'>Matthew writes:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid blue = 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt; margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'> <div> <p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span = style='font-size:12.0pt; font-family:Arial'>When I tune the temperament octave (A3-A4), it needs = to be a 4:2 octave, correct?  </span></font><o:p></o:p></p> </div> </blockquote> <div> <p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span = style='font-size: 12.0pt'>No. Read the many replies which said that it should usually be = wider than that.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid blue = 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt; margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'> <div> <p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span = style='font-size:12.0pt; font-family:Arial'>And one way to test this octave is to play the A two = octaves above the lower note as the test key, to hear the partials in the = octave, am I right?</span></font><o:p></o:p></p> </div> </blockquote> <div> <p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span = style='font-size: 12.0pt'>Not exactly, but read Don Rose's comments on = ghosting.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid blue = 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt; margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'> <div> <p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face=Arial><span = style='font-size:12.0pt; font-family:Arial'>  If the octave you are testing has no beat = whatsoever, you have a perfect temperament octave, is this = true?</span></font><o:p></o:p></p> </div> </blockquote> <div> <p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span = style='font-size: 12.0pt'>No. There is no such thing as a beatless octave. An octave which = is not beating at one level, such as 4:2, will be beating at all other = coincident partials, such as 2:1, 6:3, 8:4. The higher the beatless coincident is = in the chain, the wider the octave. A good compromise octave is usually pretty = quiet, though, <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span = style='font-size: 12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span = style='font-size: 12.0pt'>Matthew,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span = style='font-size: 12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span = style='font-size: 12.0pt'>If you have kept this trail of posts on octave tuning, please go = back and re-read it, and the links to which you were referred, including the = ones to the AccuTuner manual Appendices F and H. People are happy to spend time = helping you, but you've got to do your homework and read the replies. At the = risk of repetition, I include, directly below, a copy of my post from last week = on this subject:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span = style='font-size: 12.0pt'>Bob Davis<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span = style='font-size: 12.0pt'>-------------<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span = style='font-size: 12.0pt'>Matthew's original question was how to tune a 4:2 octave. = Several people, myself included, sent the tests, aural and visual. Whether that [meaning 4:2] is appropriate for the temperament octave on a particular = piano is a second question. Tuning so that "the 10th is just noticeably = faster than the third" might produce a good width of octave, but it is NOT = a 4:2. [It's wider] <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> <div> <p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span = style='font-size: 12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> <div> <p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span = style='font-size: 12.0pt'>A clean 4:2 octave IS wide at 2:1, and narrow at 6:3. Most aural = tuners naturally gravitate towards a temperament octave that is very slightly = wide of 4:2 ("the 10th is just noticeably faster than the third"), = which will be substantially wide of 2:1 and a tiny narrow of 6:3. This gives an = octave that is pretty clean-sounding, and produces fifths which are pretty = clean and fourths that aren't too trashy. Any octave size can be divided into 12 = equal half steps. A true 4:2 octave will produce cleaner fourths and more movement in the fifths, and on most pianos will be unnecessarily narow. However, on some pianos with high inharmonicity, a wide temperament = octave added to a clean octave below, will produce a double octave that is = too noisy. It's a balancing act. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> </div> </blockquote> <div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font = size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:12.0pt'> <hr size=1 width="100%" align=center> </span></font></div> <p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span = style='font-size: 12.0pt'>Do you Yahoo!?<br> <a href="http://vote.yahoo.com">vote.yahoo.com</a> - Register online = to vote today!<o:p></o:p></span></font></p> </div> </body> </html>