<html> Hi, Thump Interspersed ... At 09:13 AM 9/23/2005 -0700, you wrote: <blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>I thank you for the criticism, Susan, but my feeling is this: 1) I don't want to come back and do this again, if I have not used enough the first time. </blockquote> I can understand this, if you had a lot of work the first time. <blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>2)I do not want to try to explain to the customer that it needs a second application, that may not work either, and I need more money for this.</blockquote> The point (for me) being that when I do it, just treating a few as needed, without tilting, it takes so little time and effort I don't need to charge for it at all! <blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>3) I believe there may be pianos where there IS no "second chance": that once CA has been applied, it creates barriers to the stuff getting into places it needs to go, so a  second application would be futile.  And then I'd REALLY have a hard time charging the needed fee!</blockquote> While I think of the "barriers" as being a benefit, because they keep the glue close to the pin, where it needs to be. I don't quite understand what you're saying here, Thump. One assumes that the only problem we are fighting is loose tuning pins. How can a pin be loose without allowing CA glue to enter? If the CA can surround the tuning pin wherever there is space between the pin and the hole, where else does it need to go? <blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>Nope. I put in as much as the piano accepts, without being ridiculous. Usually about 4 ounces per piano. Once it ceases to sink in the tuning pin holes ( usually after the second pass ) I stop. I'll go back over a few that are still absorbing, though.</blockquote> While I feel that if they are tight enough to tune, they don't need any more, at least at that time. If they stop being tunable later (which I find is rare) one can always add some then. <blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>     I tell  the customer that CA works 90% of the time, sometimes very well, but that there are no guarantees. </blockquote> I totally concur. I tell them it usually helps a lot, but no guarantees. However, come to think of it, I can't remember a time where my little half-measures weren't enough to keep a piano usable. This is assuming a normally robust system, where loose tuning pins was the only complaint. I have had to "condemn" pianos with pinblock separations, broken plates, etc. <blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>I give it my best shot, and that's that. I will leave the pins up to drive later, after the CA, in an upright. But I might drive them first in a grand, as inverting the piano and CA-ing from underneath puts hard caps over the pins' ends. Another reason to pre-tune.</blockquote> I think that as soon as CA arrived on the scene, driving pins became a barbarous procedure, from the Dark Ages. What's to like about it? It only gives more contact for that tiny little spot at the bottom of the hole. Picture the situation after a pin has been driven: there it is, held by the last 1/8" or 1/16", flagpoling around the rest of a too-loose hole. It might be better than not being held at all, but not by much. Nor is the improvement long-lasting. It hasn't addressed the basic problem, which is that the pinblock is cracking, shrinking, and delaminating.  Driving gets the pins unlevel, and used to excess, it pushes coils into the plate. If people aren't careful about supporting the pinblock while doing it in a grand, driving can cause delaminations. If they are careful, they have the fuss of pulling actions and setting up jacks. Compared to slipping a little CA in around the offending tuning pin, driving is a pain. Easier in an upright, but still unnecessary and undesirable, IMHO. Even in an upright, are you _sure_ that driving a pin isn't further damaging the block, worsening cracks, or worsening delaminations? Picture what's happening: the end of a tuning pin is being whacked into a deep lamination, unsupported by the wood further up. How can this be good for a block? Inverting a piano and pouring CA into the block from the rear is the final stage of quintessential too-much-ness. You have the pain of tipping the piano over, and as you point out, you create a situation where the pins are not free to proceed further into the block, which they are intended to do as needed. You also have exposed yourself to a lot of dangerous fumes, used a lot of glue, which isn't cheap, and you've had the delay of waiting for the stuff to set up. Compare this to a few minutes as needed, during regular tunings, without having to tip or remove anything. In a grand, if you were very anxious, you could remove the fallboard and slip a piece of cardboard between the bottom of the pinblock and the action stack, but when one is using just a few drops of glue, it simply doesn't run through and all over the place, in my experience. <blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>    Peace,      G </blockquote> Peace, of course ... Susan <blockquote type=cite class=cite cite>--- Susan Kline <skline@peak.org> wrote: > At 10:31 AM 9/23/2005 -0500, you wrote: > >I use drop cloths now, always. > > How about using LESS GLUE!?!?? > > This whole thread just shouts at me, "they are using > too much!" > Like pouring someone a cup of coffee, and you don't > think you've done it > right until the coffee slops over the saucer onto > the tablecloth. > > I know we're in the early stages of using CA glue, > without a great deal > of hard data as to the effects of more or less, and > the timing of the > application(s), but I get the strong feeling that > less is better, and > that two small applications is much better than one > flooding. The first > (small) application seals the tiny cracks, and the > second re-lines the > tuning pin holes. Well, that's how I account for > what I observe. > > The great blessing of CA for loose pins, it seems to > me, is that by > following small cracks, it improves the other loose > pins in the area. > Some of what we used to do, like tapping down a > loose pin or using an > oversized pin, made the neighbors worse. So, if > using CA on a really > bad pin, surrounded by sort of bad pins, will help > them all to a certain > extent, and will certainly prepare the area for more > glue if it is > needed later, by sealing some of the small cracks, > why try to do it > all at once? > > It also sounds like people are flooding every single > tuning pin as a > standard practice. Maybe it's just our benign > climate, but even the bad > pinblocks I work on here (refugees from other > places) have large sections > where all the pins are tunable and okay, though not > really snug. > Why not just put the stuff where it is needed, and > leave the rest alone? > > So far, it's worked for me to not tilt the piano. I > put some CA at the seam > at the top of the tuning pin, wait a little, put a > little more on. I use > Loctite's little plastic bottle with the long narrow > spout. It just lives > in my kit. If CA starts to run down the plate, I sop > it up with the corner > of a shop towel. After a few minutes, I try to tune > it. Once in awhile, > I give it a little more, but most of the time it's > tunable after ten > minutes. On repeat visits, the old treated pins are > okay, and I'll do a > couple more if need be. > > It's also a lot less time and fuss and mess to treat > only the pins which > won't hold. The job just slips into a normal tuning, > like dusting off the > innards, fixing a couple bobbling notes, bending a > scraping bridle wire, > etc. A few minutes as needed, and if one sees the > piano on a regular > basis, pretty soon loose pins aren't a problem with > it. (in my experience > .. YMMV) > > Susan > > _______________________________________________ > pianotech list info: > <a href="https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives" eudora="autourl">https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives</a> > <x-tab>        </x-tab><x-tab>        </x-tab> __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 <a href="http://mail.yahoo.com/" eudora="autourl">http://mail.yahoo.com</a> _______________________________________________ pianotech list info: <a href="https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives" eudora="autourl">https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives</a> </blockquote></html>