<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1" = http-equiv=Content-Type> <META content="MSHTML 5.00.3105.105" name=GENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=#ffffff> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- <DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A href="mailto:tompiano@gate.net" title=tompiano@gate.net>Tom = Servinsky</A> </DIV> <DIV><B>To:</B> <A href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org" title=pianotech@ptg.org>pianotech@ptg.org</A> </DIV> <DIV><B>Sent:</B> Saturday, November 03, 2001 1:58 AM</DIV> <DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: more on this temperament tangent</DIV></DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: = 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: = black"><B>From:</B> <A href="mailto:Billbrpt@AOL.COM" = title=Billbrpt@AOL.COM>Billbrpt@AOL.COM</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A = href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org" title=pianotech@ptg.org>pianotech@ptg.org</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, November 02, 2001 = 9:37 AM</DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: more on this = temperament tangent</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV><FONT face=arial,helvetica><FONT size=2>In a = message dated 11/2/01 8:15:08 AM Central Standard Time, <A href="mailto:Tvak@AOL.COM">Tvak@AOL.COM</A> <BR>writes: <BR><BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; = MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px" TYPE="CITE">Orchestral music is played in just intonation. =  Each player constantly tunes <BR>his instrument adjusting each note. = </FONT><FONT color=#000000 face=Arial lang=0 size=3 = FAMILY="SANSSERIF"></BLOCKQUOTE><FONT size=2> <DIV>Let me zip up my flame suit first...there!<BR></FONT><FONT = color=#000000 face=Arial lang=0 FAMILY="SANSSERIF"></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#000000 face=Arial lang=0 = FAMILY="SANSSERIF">If you agree to the Harvard Music Dictionary definition of Just Intonation as the 3rd = and 5ths, and octaves being tuned pure, the basis for orchestra tuning is = strongly influenced byJust Intonation. Obviously, orchestras don't embrace = Just Intonation to the degree a keyboard would be tuned, but they do = have some similarities in that the agreed tuning of those intervals (3rd, 5th, = and octave) remains pure.</FONT></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>The basic premise for classical and  modern = orchestra interval tuning still encourages the pureness of the 3rd, 5ths, and = octave. There are exceptions to that rule, but in general, that is the agreed = tuning of those intervals. Is that Just Intonation? Well, yes, sort of.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2> Is it grounds for a good arguement? If you = abide by the rules of Just Intonation compared to the agreed tuning acceptance = of the 3rd, 5th, and octaves in orchestra use...the argument exists. = Does vibrato affect the purity? Of course. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>Do players "bend " the notes to fit the pitch so = the interval remains in the pure state? </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>Without question.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#000000 face=Arial lang=0 size=2 = FAMILY="SANSSERIF">  Regardless of the work, listen to a Verdi opera, Rossini overture, or Stravinksy's Firebird, and pay close attention to the way the = orchestra players tune those described intervals. Better yet, try = zeroing in on , say the principle oboe player, and listen carefully to = how he approaches and resolves those intervals. Influences of Just Intonation = are throughout. As a performer in the wind section, play a beating 3rd in = a slow movement you might as well kiss your job good bye. If 2 clarinets = are playing in octaves, they better be absolutely pure.</FONT><FONT = color=#000000 face=Arial lang=0 size=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF">Same with the 3rds = or 5ths.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>Now the other side of the argument it can be = stated loud and clear if Just Intonation is used, and if you follow the complete rules = of Just Intonation as it relates to temperament ,it also states that G# = and Ab will end up sounding 2 different pitches. Modulation would also be = impossible. Scale patterns would be uneven.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>And that's where the similarites stop. Orchestra = tuning is unique because it does use the 3rd,5th, and octaves as pure intervals, = but remains in a flexible state to accomodate key change, where a keyboard "Just Intonation" tuning is stuck in one mode with gross = limitations galore.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>If you want to hear orchestras which don't = prescibe to this acceptance to purity, listen to most Junior High Orchestras, or many = community orchestras with novice players, where the players haven't developed = the sensitvity and flexibility to pitch and interval understanding. Then = you'll treated to tempered intervals throughout, = unintentionally.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>Temperament influencing composers....</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#000000 face=Arial lang=0 size=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF">Undoubtebly,composers have been and will always = be influenced by temperament. Most have been conditioned  by the = very fact that most write their works from the keyboard. Not necessarily for the = keyboard, but through the keyboard. Think of the1000's of hrs. spent = composing a major symphony while slaving over a pianoforte tuned in WT, or today = on a Steinway D tuned in ET. The examples are too obvious where temperament = of the day influenced the style of writing.  It's analogus to computers = and software programers. Programers are influenced and restricted by the operating system of that computer's system. Someone working = with Windows will obviously be influenced the constraints and = characteristics of that system. Someone working with DOS, MAC systems will be conditioned = differently.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>Composers living during the Baroque period were obviously  influenced by the early temperaments as was Gershwin = when writing his many great works.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#000000 face=Arial lang=0 size=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF"></FONT> </DIV><FONT color=#000000 = face=Arial lang=0 size=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF"> <BLOCKQUOTE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; = MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px" TYPE="CITE"> <DIV>>  Not in the minds of >composers.  When a = composer writes an <BR>>orchestral piece, he thinks in just >intonation.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Well, then you would have to have an additional fingering for = G# and Ab, if you follow the notion the composer is thinking in complete = Just Intonation. Those would be 2 different pitches. Scale patterns would = also be modified.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"Temperament exists only on the keyboard"</FONT><FONT = color=#000000 face=Arial lang=0 size=3 = FAMILY="SANSSERIF"></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><FONT size=2> <DIV>Let's word that differently...<BR>"Temperament tuning only exists = on the stringed keyboard." .... Back to the Harvard Music = Dictionary</DIV> <DIV>Temperament..."General designation for various systems of tuning = in which the intervals are tempered, i.e., they deviate from the accoustically = correct intervals of the Pythagorean scale and of Just Intonation"</DIV> <DIV>Orchestras do not temper those intervals. But composers do = write with respect and regard to temperament. All the great composers = we have been eluding to were all influenced and conditioned through the = effects of keyboard temperament. These composers were extreme cases of pure = genius at work. They had an incredible amt.of understanding and sensitivity = towards the pros and cons of temperament, key color, and even a thorough = understanding for the instruments they were writing for. We haven't = even begun to dive into the problems each instrument brings to the table. = Yet these composers were able to work around a lot of hazzards and find = the inner most beauty and present it as a gift of pure delight.  I often = wonder what if Mozart would have wrote differently if he was living today. = Better yet, what if he could have time traveled ahead 300 yrs. and had the opportunity to experience writing music with different temperaments = and modern instruments. What if could have looked back and wanted to change = what he had written?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This would make for an excellent forum at next year's convention = in Chicago. It sounds like there's some real passion from many on this subject.</DIV> <DIV>Tom = Servinsky,RPT</DIV></FONT></FONT></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>