<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1" = http-equiv=Content-Type> <META content="MSHTML 5.00.3211.1700" name=GENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY bgColor=#ffffff> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Hi Joe,</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Terry"s advice is right = on!</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>If you only tune by machine now, force = yourself to trust yourself and your ear.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>On every piano you tune tune a little = by ear, make some checks by ear, and develope your listening skills.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Thus said you are probibly an aural = tuner playing devils advocate, right? <G></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>Even with good numbers you will find = sections of some pianos that do not follow the nice even progression that the ETD's = lay out.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>If the stringer runs out of the correct = size, they likely will not stop stringing while the gofer is getting the new = canister of wire.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2>And in the bass replaced strings or a = poor scale match will through off any well generated set of numbers.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Joe Goss<BR><A href="mailto:imatunr@primenet.com">imatunr@primenet.com</A><BR><A href="http://www.primenet.com/~imatunr/">http://www.primenet.com/~imatu= nr/</A><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: = 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV> <DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: = black"><B>From:</B> <A href="mailto:mfarrel2@tampabay.rr.com" title=mfarrel2@tampabay.rr.com>Farrell</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A = href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org" title=pianotech@ptg.org>pianotech@ptg.org</A> </DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, January 28, 2001 = 8:01 AM</DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Basic SAT III = (& VTD) Questions</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV>Comments interspersed below in original post:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Terry Farrell<BR>Piano Tuning & Service<BR>Tampa, = Florida<BR><A = href="mailto:mfarrel2@tampabay.rr.com">mfarrel2@tampabay.rr.com</A></DI= V> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>----- Original Message ----- <DIV>From: "joegum" <<A href="mailto:joegum@webtv.net">joegum@webtv.net</A>></DIV> <DIV>To: <<A href="mailto:pianotech@ptg.org">pianotech@ptg.org</A>></DIV> <DIV>Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2001 10:07 PM</DIV> <DIV>Subject: Basic SAT III (& VTD) Questions</DIV></DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <DIV>> Hi.  I had the opportunity this afternoon to experiment = with an SAT III<BR>> at a friend's home.  (My first experience with a = VTD... II was trained<BR>> years ago as an aural tuner.) I was led through = the F-A-C procedure, set<BR>> the = temperament          &n= bsp;           &nb= sp;       by device and tuned the<BR>> strip-muted middle register.  = (The piano wasn't significantly out of<BR>> tune and very close to = pitch.)  However, when I checked the octaves,<BR>> they were beating quite noticeably (one to two BPS).  Is this normal?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>On a well scaled piano with good FAC numbers (especially the "A" = value), the SAT calculates 1/4 to 1/2 bps for all double octaves (without = adjustment to the Double Octave Beat (DOB) feature). Dr. Sanderson designed the = SAT this way as he felt this was a "typical" or average preference for tuners. = So, on a nice Yamaha C7, NO this is not normal - on a rusty/crusty 1943 = Betsy Ross spinet, it may not be too far from that expected.......but you can = change it to suit your preferences!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Understand that the FAC values (and let's just talk about the A = for now) represent an inharmonicity value for that region of the stringing = scale. If you have unrepresentative values (i.e., "bad" numbers), the calculated = tuning may not fit the piano well. The "A" value is the most critical of the = three by far. Dr. Sanderson and his son Paul do a class at the conventions = where they go into much detail demonstrating this. I always measure all three = strings of A4 when getting my "A" value (unless its a crudiano and I get a = number that looks OK). If they do not seem "good" (either way off from that = expected or light pattern was jumping all about) I will also measure the "A" = value on several other nearby strings (within a couple of notes away - next = door first). Again, A4 may not be a good representative note. It may be = that the piano is poorly scaled and A4 is the last string of a particular size = wire that ideally would have otherwise been a different size - = that can certainly throw off an "A" value. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyway, get the most representative FAC numbers you can (time and = experience will tell you what is reasonable). My experience is that = with "good" FAC numbers on a good piano, the calculated tuning is right-on. = BUT, if for whatever reason you don't like what you hear (you have different = tuning preferences, you have bad FAC #s, a bad piano, or its just a bad day - = poor planetary alignment, etc.) just adjust the stretch with the DOB and = you have equal temperament with YOUR ideal stretch amount (scrunch it or expand = it). That is what the DOB is for. And you can change it in any region of = the scale to your preferences. You <EM>may </EM>find that you ALWAYS like more = stretch than the standard SAT calculation provides - you may want to start = adding 0.5 (or whatever) to your "A" and "C" values when initially entering FAC = numbers because you have found that this will calculate a tuning more close to = YOUR preferences (you will learn to customize your initial tuning to your = liking - I like the standard approach and do not generally change the FAC numbers).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is presicely why "machine-only" tooners can - and often do - = do poor work. Your ears MUST dictate what you are doing. The advantage of the = SAT is that once you verify that your calculated tuning is to your liking (by = doing a few octaves and other intervals - whatever makes you comfy and happy) = you can then follow the machine and produce a very fine tuning without ear = strain (unisons excluded, of course - although on rough pianos, the top = several notes on my tunings often have unisons set by machine!).</DIV> <DIV><BR>> Is it now in some circles considered acceptable for = octaves to be<BR>> stretched this much?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You tell the machine exactly how much to stretch the octaves. = Don't let the machine tell you what is or is not acceptable. It's name is SAT, = not Hal.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>> When you use a VTD in noisy conditions, how can<BR>> = you have faith in what it's telling you without the benefit of = aural<BR>> verification?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Boy, this is one I have red hot advice on........Yesterday I was = tuning at a festival concert.......(see my other posts on 1st concert = tuning)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>First of all, you ALWAYS WANT aural verification. I was able to = do that yesterday at the beginning of my work. I did my FAC (even on this = Yamaha, the three "A" values were (I think) 7.3, 7.8, and 8.4. I certainly like = (and expected) them to be closer together (like within one or two tenths), = but time was critical so I used 7.8. Muted off all the "A"s, tuned them to the = machine. Listened to octaves and double octaves. Everything sounded right-on. = This combined with having tuned many similar Yamahas with excellent = results, made me feel totally comfy knowing that as long as I can "stop the lights", = keep the pitch there, and tune good unisons, we would have an excellent = tuning - even if I never was able to do any tests after-the-fact (which I did = not have the opportunity to do). If you are unsure that you have good numbers, = or you don't have a good piano and you don't get to listen to your tuning = tests - the SAT may well calculate a "bad" tuning. It only does what you tell it = to do.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>BUT, I will go one step further. If I were tuning a Yamaha C7 in = real nice shape, got three "A" values that were real close to one another, = all FAC values were within the range of what you would expect, I would feel comfortable tuning that piano with the machine and not ever being able = to test the tuning (keep in mind, if there is THAT much noise - no one else = will be able to tell if it is out of tune!). But the thing is of course, if = you can tune the unisons by ear, you should be able to at least listen to a = few octaves to get a basic feel of whether the calculated tuning will = work. I will also say that I have never tuned a piano in the manner just described = - but if I had to, I think I could.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>>  If the stretch is adjustable, can the stretch be reliably<BR>> individualized for each instrument without aural verification? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000 = size=7><STRONG><EM><U>NO!</U></EM></STRONG><FONT color=#000000 size=3>  You must listen to the calculated = tuning, and adjust the stretch so that your ears and tuning preferences are = satisfied. The ONLY way to use the DOB (properly) is to listen and adjust. The only = reason to use the DOB is because your ears have told you that the calculated = tuning is not what you like. The machine MUST be manipulated so that it reflects = what YOU like. NEVER assume the machine knows something you don't. It = <EM>can </EM>take three numbers and calculate a tuning with amazing results. = BUT. The SAT is like an automobile. YOU MUST drive it. If you let go of the = wheel you are dead. BUT the automobile sure does make getting there easier, = doesn't it?</FONT></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>> Thanks<BR>> for letting me pop back onto the list = and ask these questions.  -Joe<BR>> = Gumbosky          &nbsp= ;            <BR>> <BR>You are welcome. Hollar back with any questions! Good luck!</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>