<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=US-ASCII"> <META content="MSHTML 6.00.2900.2802" name=GENERATOR></HEAD> <BODY id=role_body style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #000000; FONT-FAMILY: = Arial" bottomMargin=7 leftMargin=7 topMargin=7 rightMargin=7><FONT id=rol= e_document face=Arial color=#000000 size=2> <DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>   Wow</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>    I went to convention & this threa= d is still active after a week.   Always a good sign IMO.   Gordon I've been following some of this & I  think I understand whe= re your'e coming from.  </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>  Do I hear someone saying "oh crap here he goes again"......  Oh well</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>    Gordon, to reiterate what some have said....... many forms of boards work, but repeatable, duplicate results is the name of the game, as far as is possible in the realm of the materials we work with. We weren't around to see a numbers of units com= e off a production line & judge these under our tonal microscopes.  H= ow unfortunate. Never the less, I, as well as others are amazed = by the intersting sdbd designs seen in the field but I probably wouldn't build = one that way today well ....unless you want to be my patron. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>   I've built dozens of boards in different iterations & thru that have discovered a sound I love which seems to be repeatable.  No, I'll admit, early on not all my boards have met m= y expectations but as I have applied ideas gleaned from others, taken risks et= c. the results  have improved repeatably  & dramtically.  </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>     This type of empirica= l experience  has NO substitute & the only way I or anyone can prove results is to put yourself in front of instruments that come from  here & elsewhere, put your fingers & ears on it & do = your own  test & then decide  for yourself if modern RC designs provide a musically excellent outcome.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>    Many folks this past weekend in = Los Angeles had that opportunity to do just that. June 21st You  can do the= same in Rochester.  This has <STRONG>rarely</STRONG> happened & I'v= e been waiting along time for it to happen again.  Sign up....go</FONT></= DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>    I'll speak for all others guys t= aking restored instruments to Rochester.......</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>    It's a lot of work to get a piano prepped,shined & primed for such an event &  if all one has to = do is get there I think it will be a very fascinating convention for those in attendance</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>  </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>   My humble designs, which I call VRS "Variable Radius Soundboard" Has produced very consistent results. It's not even my idea ..so what, it works. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3> Be that as it may I rebuilt a Ivers & Pond 6ft= grand that was from the 20's. It had big wide flatish ribs & a .400 thick panel.  Wow ..</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>    Strung up it showed no signs of resid= ual crown as tested with a string across the boards bottom.  Un strung the crown jumped up at least 10 mm.  The sustain was incredible in this pia= no. Analyzing the string scale showed a scale  very near the breaking stren= gth in the middle portions of plain wire but wow did it sound good. The tighter = a wire the better it seems to sound.  Many things , as usual ,contribute = to the sound being achieved & this was no exception.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>  However my Sister had /has a large orna= te  rebuilt Ivers & Pond upright turn o century style also with  = the wide flat ribs design.  The bass is astounding the mid tenor really goo= d but from approx. note 55 on up it suffers big time  from low impedance creating a weak treble   So..... &nb= sp; she bought a AA Mason</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>  That said ,Would I build this Ivers grand design?= No.... did it work. Yes ,but how bout the countless others that came out wit= h it & the ones you mentioned we'll never know.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>  Postulate away</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>   Dale Erwin</FONT></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px solid"><= FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=Arial color=#000000 size= =2>Dear Mr. Nossaman,<BR>     I am simply trying to ascertain why these= 4<BR>boards, which should be "crap" by the general<BR>"consensus" on this = list are, instead, the best<BR>preserved ( tonally ) of any I've heard on piano= s this<BR>old. ( And I've heard hundreds. ) <BR>    My 3 previous inquiries reaped deafening silence.<BR>It was only after I cited a revered= authority that<BR>someone ( you ) deemed it necessary to reveal that, in<BR>fact, wide, shallow ribs CAN have rib-crowning. Until<BR>then this feature was unanimously declared here as<BR>indicative of "Strictly CC"&nb= sp; boards. <BR>   ( Thank you very much. )<BR>    NOW, I = am postulating that grain orientation was<BR>an integral, intentional feature= of this design. I am<BR>incredulous regarding your assertion that a<BR>quarter-sawn piece of wood will have the same<BR>characteristics of elasticity and resistance to<BR>compression set, whether the rings run parallel to the<BR>board ( "Pancaked" ) or perpendicular ( "Vertical" ). <BR>     If the rings are parallel, their naturally <BR>com= pact cellular structure will be largely in a state<BR>of tension due to soundbo= ard crown, which I see as<BR>conducive to elasticity in the rib, and resistanc= e to<BR>"compression set". ( Downbearing and vibration will<BR>get them clos= er to their pre-crowned state of density,<BR>but not beyond it. ) <BR>      If, on the other hand, the rings are vertical,<BR>particular= ly if rib-crowning is cut into them, many<BR>more cells will be in  compression, which may lead to<BR>excessive stiffness and and earlier breakdown of the<BR>system. ( Caused by compression set within the rib<BR>itself ).<BR>    What I am getting at is this: There is n= o question<BR>in my mind that whoever built these boards  knew what<BR>= they were doing. All are from top manufacturers, and<BR>all have stood up over time, in a horrid climate,<BR>producing superlative tone. I am merely suggesting<BR>that they intentionally aimed for "the best of all<BR>possib= le worlds": wide, flat ribs of quartersawn<BR>spruce with the annular rings parallel to the board<BR>surface, for elasticity and longevity.... with some<BR>rib-crowning, as well.<BR>     There is nothing wro= ng with postulating here.<BR>Sure, I'll take a good, close look at these things<BR>when I have the time. But part of the List's utility<BR>is that = it provides an opportunity for those who have<BR>already done the looking to speak up, and there,<BR>unfortunately, are certain persons here who have<BR>established a hegemony of opinion which intimidates,<BR>and thereb= y precludes others from venturing forth, for<BR>fear of having their "Heads = bit off", as you did to me<BR>in your last. <BR>     All myster= ies that have faced mankind,<BR>individually and collectively, have first been<BR>assigned  theoretical answers which empirical<BR>investigatio= ns confirm or debunk. <BR>   I have presented an anomaly to the "List"<BR>"consensus":  Four, shallow, wide ribbed pianos which<BR>al= l sound like thunder after 100 years in a truly<BR>lousy climate. I am merel= y seeking an explanation, and<BR>appreciate what positive information you have<BR>presented. I must confess, though, that I perceive<BR>some irritat= ion based more on the fact that I have<BR>thrown a "monkey wrench" into the "accepted theory",<BR>rather than that I have merely not "learned enough"<BR>from what has been discussed before.<BR><BR>    Peace,<BR>    Gordon<BR><BR><BR>  .--- Ron Nossaman <rnossaman@cox.net> wrote:<BR><BR>> <BR>> > I'd love to, if= I ever get the time. <BR>> <BR>> If you have an hour to dedicate to yo= ur education,<BR>> you've got <BR>> the time. If not, you'll never know= anyway.<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> >I'm guessin' that<BR>> > the intent of this rib design is to maximize<BR>> support,<BR>> > whi= le retaining excellent elasticity, and that the<BR>> > grain orientatio= n has a  lot to do with it. <BR>> <BR>> Yes, that would indeed be= guessing. The grain<BR>> orientation has <BR>> virtually nothing to = do with it, which you could<BR>> find out for <BR>> yourself with minim= al effort and sincere desire to<BR>> know.<BR>> <BR>> <BR>>   > P.S. If anyone out there wants to test this<BR>&= gt; hypothesis<BR>> > before I can, please feel free, and please report<BR>> > back.<BR>> <BR>> It's been done, and reported to= the list, as has<BR>> most of what <BR>> is eternally re-hashed here in perpetual mystery.<BR>> Asking <BR>> questions and speculating rando= mly is always easier<BR>> than <BR>> working something out for oneself a= nd reaching one's<BR>> own <BR>> conclusions based on the logical reali= ty of what one<BR>> finds, <BR>> and one gets the luxury of picking and= choosing what<BR>> one <BR>> wishes to believe as a matter of convenience rather<BR>> than <BR>> considering what the cumulative evidence indicates.<BR>> Life is <BR>> easier, it seems, with the pr= oper filters.<BR>> Ron N<BR>> _______________________________________________<BR>> Pianotech list info:<BR>> https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives<BR>> </FONT></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT lang=0 face=Arial size=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" PTSIZE="10"= >Dale Erwins Piano Restorations<BR>4721 Parker Rd. <BR>Modesto, CA 95357<BR>209-577-8397<BR>Specializing in the restoration , service & Sal= es of <BR>Steinway , Mason & hamlin & other fine pianos.<BR>Erwinspiano@aol.com</FONT></DIV></FONT></BODY></HTML>