<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=US-ASCII"> <META content="MSHTML 6.00.2800.1400" name=GENERATOR></HEAD> <BODY id=role_body style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: #000000; FONT-FAMILY: = Arial" bottomMargin=7 leftMargin=7 topMargin=7 rightMargin=7><FONT id=rol= e_document face=Arial color=#000000 size=2> <DIV>In a message dated 8/30/2004 1:23:29 AM Pacific Standard Time, remoody@midstatesd.net writes:</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px solid"><= FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=Arial color=#000000 size= =2> <DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=3><SPAN class=850002106-30082004>Concerning clients who bought defective pianos</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=3><SPAN class=850002106-30082004></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=3><SPAN class=850002106-3008200= 4>You wrote, </SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="MS Sans Serif" size=3><SPAN class=850002106-30082004>    "<FONT face=Arial>Both wer= e bought from dealers who sent them there to Juarez."</FONT></SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3><SPAN class=850002106-30082004></SPAN></FONT> <= /DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3><SPAN class=850002106-30082004>Red Flag.  It is= the dealers that who are liable.  They sold defective merchandise.  = If they knew it,  it is fraud. </FONT></FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> <FONT size=3>  <STRONG>>>>  Richard</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3><STRONG>    . So are you saying the work = done in Juarez is fraud but the dealers are the only ones culpable?</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT size=3>  Perhaps the question is when a dealer ord= ers action work in a Juarez what is it they are buying or are there different le= vels of effort or customization being offered at different prices? Can a custom balanced action be bought with correct dimension parts etc.? This is a quest= ion I think Guy would probably like the oppurtuntiy to answer.</FONT></STRONG></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px solid"> <DIV><FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=Arial color=#0= 00000 size=2><FONT size=3> If the work was a disaster as you = state how could the dealers not know, which gets close to sales fraud.  Whatever, they are responsible for what they sell.  They (dealers) can sue who did the work, but it may be to= o late after they sold them. (this does not excuse shoddy work but if dealers take it in and then sell it that is almost getting worse) </FONT></FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><STRONG>  <FONT size=3>>. >. Yes a compounding series of unforntunate events for certain sure to bite the end user every time.</FONT></STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT size=3>   Hey Dealers aren't piano techs &amp= ; some are pretty naive, unmechanical, & just bad judges of what is acceptable levels of piano cratsmanship. Frankly some would be happier  selling  refrigerators</FONT></STRONG></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3><STRONG>  I beleive that Guy pointed out there are = dealer responsiblilities & Their(Sama) responsibilities. If they did refinish a= nd stringing & some local tooner "did the action" whatever that might be, well soon responsibility gets spread around to a variety of different parties. Heck, one could have three different lawsuits(theoretically) on the= same piano. I'm assuming hypothetical fraud negligence or misrepresentation = of course.</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT size=3>   In our shop every item in restorati= on gets done under one business banner & also one warranty if need be. It's= neat tidy & clients like it.</FONT></STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT size=3> On the occasion I do  belly or finish= for a client it comes with a 5 yr. warranty as well. But I'm not reposible for the= action work or dampers etc.</FONT></STRONG></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px solid"> <DIV><FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=Arial color=#0= 00000 size=2><FONT size=3> Were these dealers in Calif?  Calif has= very strict and specific laws about this.  How long ago?  Less  than 30 days ago?  If so, they (the buyers) may have right= s no other states offer.</FONT></FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> <FONT size=3><STRONG>  >>>Yes One in Ca. & it= was not a good one & legalities are being pursued.</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV></SPAN> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px solid"><= FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=Arial color=#000000 size= =2> <DIV><FONT size=3><SPAN class=850002106-30082004></SPAN></FONT><FONT size=3><SPAN class=850002106-30082004>      B= efore you start work on the piano you might want to advise your clients the= y may have legal rights and should consult a lawyer.</FONT></FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><FONT size=3>>><STRONG> I Have, & it's good advice</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px solid"> <DIV><FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=Arial color=#0= 00000 size=2><FONT size=3> You might want to consult a l= awyer before you start work.  Whatever, take plenty of pictures. = </FONT></FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><FONT size=3><STRONG>  > also good advice</STRONG></FONT></DI= V> <BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px solid"> <DIV><FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=Arial color=#0= 00000 size=2><FONT size=3>The dealer should have had a tech check out the pianos. So should the buyer. </FONT></FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> <STRONG><FONT size=3>    >>>> The de= aler in this case didn't care& Yes the client he knows that now</FONT></STRONG></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px solid"> <DIV><FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=Arial color=#0= 00000 size=2><FONT size=3> Your clients should have a lawyer check out = their case.  By not knowing to advise them, you become much like the dealer= who "didn't know."</FONT></FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>  <FONT size=3><STRONG>>> Well they have been advised= so perhaps you assumed  I didn't?</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT size=3>  I'm not like the dealer Richard</FONT></STRONG></DIV> <DIV></SPAN> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px solid"><= FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=Arial color=#000000 size= =2> <DIV><FONT size=3><SPAN class=850002106-30082004></SPAN></FONT> <= /DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3><SPAN class=850002106-30082004>Professional ethics i= s another matter.  It is better not to insinuate that a business in your profession does shoddy work until you sit down = and have coffee with them first. </FONT></FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>  <STRONG><FONT size=3>True but whe yoou see two in a row. any w= ay Good advise & next time I'll take it. I beleive were having coffee now.</FONT></STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT size=3></FONT></STRONG> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px solid"> <DIV><FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=Arial color=#0= 00000 size=2><FONT size=3> :)  Stuff has been said here (<U><STRON= G>Does the list really need to know?)</STRONG></U> and the sad part is from piano= tuners who aren't even sure what they are talking about; that if directed towards me, I would demand a retraction to my satisfaction. </FONT></FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><STRONG><FONT size=3>   That's certainly true but have you noticed the amount of accusation on list that is directed towards oh Steinwa= y for example & not many on list have objected to the critism. So is it ok= to critise truly shoddy work or thing you don't like or not. Should w= e just ignore such things  like the  abusive Alcholic bully in a family that every one knows is being abusive but no= one wants to acnowledge it because it's uncomfortable. </FONT></STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT size=3>   Yes I get your unhappy vibes over t= he way I handled it but I of all concerned probably was least culpable in this mess= & I certainly didn't cause the problems.</FONT></STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT size=3>   I hold my tongue on this kind of th= ing untill I see something that smacks "shoddy work" resulting  in customer= related tradgedy. Then I get cranky. It gives us all a bit of a black eye.</FONT></STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT size=3>    I've offered to apologize if = the responsibility for what I saw lies elswhere & that's good enough for me & those concerned. If it's a warranty issue I'm sure it will be resolved= . The dealer in the A stwy is being sued if they can be found.</FONT></STRONG></DIV> <DIV></SPAN> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px solid"><= FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=Arial color=#000000 size= =2> <DIV><FONT size=3><SPAN class=850002106-30082004></SPAN></FONT><FONT size=3><SPAN class=850002106-30082004>     De= famation is still a crime and when you write it and then publish it,= it becomes libel. And the publisher can be held liable which in this case is PTG. </FONT></FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>  <FONT size=3><STRONG>></STRONG> <STRONG>I beleive defammati= on is an intentional malisicous attack on anothers credibility & not the same = as an honest  observation of the facts &  a repititon of a clients story as reported by them. I think your inflating it. Otherwise= much of what is read here on list would qualify under your definition for defamation. You Lawyer types straighten me out on this if I'm amiss.</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px solid"> <DIV><FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=Arial color=#0= 00000 size=2><FONT size=3>Does PTG have a written policy or bylaw that says "defamatory posts are not permitted, and are the sole responsibility of th= e poster?"  If not do I want <U>to be part of such a list? &n= bsp; Do I want to be part of a list where "esteemed colleagues" get derogatory = on, well ........on un esteemed colleagues?</U> </FONT></FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> <FONT size=3><STRONG> It's been done frequently in case you've = not read lately many a recent rancorous post in the past few years.</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px solid"> <DIV><FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=Arial color=#0= 00000 size=2><FONT size=3> So you see how deep it can get just because = of a thoughtless rant(s)... er excuse me, tocsin.  </SPAN></FONT><FON= T size=3><SPAN class=850002106-30082004> </SPAN></FONT><FONT size= =3><SPAN class=850002106-30082004><FONT size=2> </FONT><FONT size=3>And = why do we have to go through it?</FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> <FONT size=3><STRONG>>> sorry you feel that way, it was h= ardly thoughtless or toxic. Is this personal?</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT size=3>   All due respect</FONT></STRONG></DI= V> <DIV><STRONG><FONT size=3>   Dale</FONT></STRONG></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px solid"><= FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" face=Arial color=#000000 size= =2><FONT size=3><FONT size=3> <DIV><BR></DIV></FONT></SPAN></FONT> <DIV><FONT size=3><SPAN class=850002106-30082004></SPAN></FONT> <= /DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3><SPAN class=850002106-30082004>Richard Moody </SPAN></FONT></DIV></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV></DIV> <DIV> </DIV></FONT></BODY></HTML>