Pinning and Tone

[Don Mannino]

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Isaac,
=20
Your comments are usually heard from people who have somewhat limited =
experience with ABS material.  This is common in Europe, where the ABS =
actions have not been used as widely and for as long a time.   You are =
entitled to your opinions, of course, but the ABS action parts have been =
widely used for many, many years now, and they have proven themselves =
very well.  Actually, it seems strange that you brought up ABS parts - =
this topic was about pinning friction, and you have steered it in a new =
direction.  I'm always happy for the opportunity to respond regarding =
Kawai products, though!
=20
ABS Birds-eyes will most definitely not become oval any easier than in =
wood parts.  The parts have been very thoroughly tested to be at least =
as strong as wood, even after 30 years.  In my 24 years working on =
pianos, both at Kawai and before, I have never seen any oval birds-eyes =
in ABS parts except for one upright piano where someone in a school =
reached in and broke hammers off.  What you have seen must have been an =
aberration, or was in a piano which was subject to some kind of abuse.   =
I have experienced oval birds-eyes in wood parts before, besides split =
wood birds eyes and deformed wood flanges pinching the hammer butts =
after years of humidity fluctuations.  The ABS material is quite =
resilient, and has to be treated very brutally to become deformed.
=20
Your comments regarding tone do not fit with the sound of the Shigeru =
Kawai pianos at all.  Our Shigeru Kawai concert grands have truly =
wonderful tone, and are becoming sought after by classical artists - and =
none have complained about it having the full ABS action!  Many are very =
surprised when we tell them the action is made of 'plastic.'  If you =
have experienced a "thump" tone, then you might consider other factors =
besides just the ABS.  If you investigate the piano further I am =
confident you would find another explanation.
=20
The grand hammer shank (which contains the cloth bushing) is made from =
wood in all Kawai actions, so your comments regarding the bushing change =
does not apply to grand hammer shanks, the topic of my post.  In other =
words, the ABS flanges have no affect at all on the play in the pinning, =
contrary to your statement.  My comments regarding loose pinning in dry =
climates applied to many well made actions - I have experienced it in =
Yamaha and Renner actions as well as Kawai, and others on the list have =
said this in the past.  The parts can be slightly low in friction in dry =
conditions because these companies are ensuring free movement and =
acceptable friction in even the most humid climates.
=20
In upright pianos the hammer butt flange is ABS, but there has been no =
verification of a difference in the flange friction as the bushing and =
flange assembly react to humidity.  I used to think that the wood was =
better than plastic in this regard myself, but have been unable to =
verify that wood flanges and ABS flanges give a measurably different =
range of friction in varying humidity conditions.  In my testing (using =
upright hammer butt flanges, wood and plastic, both rebushed with the =
same cloth and procedures and measured over a period of a year in all =
different environmental conditions) the results were inconclusive.
=20
Isaac, I respect your right to an opinion based on your experiences, but =
I do not think that your findings are common.  Try to keep an open mind =
as to whether your circumstances might have been unusual, and also to =
Kawai's efforts to keep development of the modern piano moving forward.  =
The piano industry needs innovation with new designs and materials, and =
this type of objection to Kawai's ABS actions is typically a reflection =
of piano peoples' resistance to change.
=20
Don Mannino RPT
=20
-----Original Message-----
From: Isaac sur Noos [mailto:oleg-i@noos.fr]=20
Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2003 12:56 AM
To: College and University Technicians
Subject: RE: Pinning and Tone



Don Mannino, hello,
=20
I noticed that Kaway with their ABS flange tend to take too much play in =
the pinning indeed. As I understand it, because when the bushing grows, =
the part can't swell because of the material, and when getting dry =
after, some play is installed.
=20
I came to a few pianos where the birseye itself have developped =
ovalisation with time (1978 models).
So, while I like a lot the grand jack, I am far from convinced with the =
other parts, for instance noise and extra friction on RX... grand =
whippen lever, kind of feeling the weight and texture of the damper =
lever in RX series.
=20
ABS does not give as tone, only thump. And I regret this, because I =
appreciate your grands, after having installed in them firm Yamaha front =
punchings (discard those cotton style punchings !) and regulate them so =
the touch is more light, they tone very well generally (I mean for the =
soundboard/strings/hammers parts)
=20
By the way are the broaches you sell to be used without a handle ?.
=20
Best Regards.
=20
=20
=20

Isaac OLEG

Entretien et r=E9paration de pianos.

PianoTech
17 rue de Choisy
94400 VITRY sur SEINE
FRANCE
tel : 033 01 47 18 06 98
fax : 033 01 47 18 06 90
cell: 06 60 42 58 77=20

-----Message d'origine-----
De : caut-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:caut-bounces@ptg.org]De la part de Don =
Mannino
Envoy=E9 : mercredi 22 octobre 2003 19:20
=C0 : College and University Technicians
Objet : RE: Pinning and Tone


Alan,
=20
I see what you're getting at.  I don't know of any simple answer to =
troubleshooting the friction other than removing parts and testing for =
friction.  You can do general troubleshooting by swinging the action to =
find the loosest and tightest parts, and you can measure down and =
upweight to get general friction levels, but removing parts and feeling =
the softness of the bushing and checking the friction with a spring =
gauge are really the definitive way to know what's up.
=20
Here are some pertinent thoughts, though I'm not sure I can give you any =
real helpful procedures to follow:
=20
- Too much friction causes a dull tone with poor projection and =
sometimes poor sustain.  It affects the action performance as well, of =
course.
- Too little friction causes no problems in tone at all in and of =
itself.  It is only because we are using cloth bushings that low =
friction results in poor tone because the hammer is not controlled in =
its motion well enough.  Please understand me here - if you have a very, =
very firm bushing that will pin with low friction and still have =
excellent side control, the tone should be fine.  It is the limitation =
of using a soft bushing material that forces us to pin with sufficient =
friction to get the control we need.  It is not the friction itself =
which gives good tone - it is the firmness of the bushing.
- Teflon bushings gave excellent tone with 0 friction, but they didn't =
last long enough.  They were an excellent idea, but the bushing material =
was not nearly as durable as good bushing cloth, so it deformed with use =
and got noisy.
- Poor quality cloth forces us to use more friction in the center to get =
the controlled motion of the hammer.  I used to work on some grand =
pianos in the 80s that came from the factory with very poor, spongy =
cloth in the hammer centers.  I would re-size the bushings with water =
and alcohol, then repin from the factory #19 pins up to #20 1/2 pins.  =
This made thinner, firmer bushings, allowed pinning at about 2 - 4 grams =
friction, and resulted in dramatically improved tone.  These pianos were =
dull and lifeless from the factory with 6 to 10 grams friction in the =
soft hammer centers, and a firm fit with lower friction really made them =
sing.
=20
So, when evaluating friction levels in a given piano, I judge by sound =
and by feel of the parts, and decide how to work with them.  Now I work =
mostly with Kawai parts, and the bushings are very firm with mostly =
excellent control of the hammer.  In dry climates they sometimes get too =
thin in tone because the hammer center bushings dry out and become too =
loose, and repinning them to fit the climate brings the power back up in =
the tone.  I find that if I pin for good solid tone in the mid treble, =
that same friction level is great for the whole piano.
=20
Don Mannino
=20

-----Original Message-----
From: Alan McCoy [mailto:amccoy@mail.ewu.edu]=20
Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2003 9:30 AM
To: College and University Technicians
Subject: RE: Pinning and Tone


Thanks Don,
=20
In part what I am trying to get at here is distinguishing between =
friction and firmness in the bushing. Can you hear the tonal difference =
between a note that has a friction problem vs one that has a firmness =
problem?
=20
My normal procedure in reconditioning an action includes checking action =
center friction, duh, and I check side to side play gang-style checking =
for winking hammers, but I'm looking around to see if someone has =
figured out a way to systematically check for both friction and firmness =
in an efficient way (ie without painstakingly removing every flange!!)
=20
Alan
=20
PS Bob, Sending them to Marcia is cheating! :-)   Hope things are great =
down there in Modesto.

-----Original Message-----
From: caut-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:caut-bounces@ptg.org]On Behalf Of Don =
Mannino
Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2003 8:11 AM
To: caut@ptg.org
Subject: FW: Pinning and Tone



Alan,
=20
The tone of the piano can be the best gauge, as poor pinning has a =
pretty distinctive sound to it.  I would describe it as a thin and weak =
tone.  Checking the friction level in a thin sounding note, repinning =
it, and listening will tell you a lot.
=20
Experience is the best teacher here.  I don't have a specification to =
tell you, except firm enough by feel and a good solid tone by ear.  I =
suppose the engineers could give you a spec, though.  X amount of =
deflection with Y amount of force applied Z distance from the pin.
=20
Don Mannino
=20


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