[CAUT] Sacrifice (was tuners- technology)

[David Love]

I did hear a presentation by Franz Mohr (not that he was necessarily
Steinway trained) and he clearly listened to thirds when assessing a
tuning.  He pointed out a few bumps, in fact, as notes being slightly
off.  I know that if I tune a very tight equal temperament all the way
up and down, I can hear in the course of playing (depending on the
piece) if a third sounds a bit overripe.  ET vs HT debate aside, it does
seem that a clear pattern of thirds and sixths does say something about
how the tuning fits together as a whole.  While pianists certainly don't
go through and check thirds progressions, the overall impression of a
piano that is balanced that way does produce a certain sonorous effect.
As the article (and experience) suggests, some pianists are indeed
sensitive to the nuances of tuning even between tuners at very high
skill levels.  I'm not really talking about what is passable or
acceptable, but what gets to that next level of really bringing
something else out of the instrument.  I think there is a difference.


David Love
davidlovepianos@comcast.net 

-----Original Message-----
From: caut-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:caut-bounces@ptg.org] On Behalf Of
David Ilvedson
Sent: Monday, February 28, 2005 4:35 PM
To: caut@ptg.org
Subject: RE: [CAUT] Sacrifice (was tuners- technology)

If I hear an aural problem with my SAT III assisted tunings it is mainly
in single octaves and for that reason it is what I keep an ear on.   I
suspect the a lot of the tuning problems are where I place the SAT.   I
can move it around and get different readings.   Do any of you SAT users
find this?    I remember Jim Coleman Sr. mentioning the big thing in
moving ETDs further on is their mic quality/pickup etc.

In a related issue.   Ed brings up the issue of progressing fast beating
intervals and their, in his opinion, less of importance in the overall
tuning scheme.   I believe Steinway teaches a sort of 4th/5ths kind
tuning, which would probably mean less importance of fast beating
interval progression...Can anyone explain a "Steinway" style tuning?
I'm interested in what they actually teach for tuning.   Maybe someone
on the List has been trained there...?

David Ilvedson




----- Original message ----------------------------------------
From: <A440A@aol.com>
To: <caut@ptg.org>
Received: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 18:43:16 EST
Subject: [CAUT] Sacrifice (was tuners- technology)


>David  writes:

><<  The
>problem, I believe, lies in the fact that they are programmed to select
>a certain partial (or in the case of the VT a certain balance of
>partials).  But frequently, those need to be fudged a little.  This is
>most obvious at the tenor break where inharmonicity spikes up and in
>order to keep a good thirds progression, the notes often need to be
>tuned a little flatter.  >>

>Greetings, 
>   Hmmm,  This suggests that the pianist will be more sensitive to the 
>evenness of the thirds than other intervals, and I have not always
found that to be 
>the case.  On smaller pianos, I often need to let the thirds lose that
perfect 
>progression of decreasing beat rate speeds in order to maintain the
same 
>sound to my octaves as they pass over the bass break.  I have never had
a pianist 
>complain about this inconsistancy, but when I was  getting a smooth
decrease 
>in the thirds (which the SAT will usually do), at the expense of the
octave, I 
>did get complaints,(sometimes).  The problem tends to show up an octave
below 
>this break when that "fudging" requires even more flatness to keep the
single 
>octave acceptable and then the double octave has a noticeable roll to
it.   
>   Within tolerances, I think the eveness of the thirds is more for the
aural 
>tuners benefit than the pianist's. It seems to be most useful in
checking the 
>accuracy of ET, but beyond that, it makes little musical
difference,(again, 
>within tolerances).  I don't know of a pianist alive that could tell
that, say, 
>F#-A# is beating the same speed as the adjacent G-B or F-A, especially
at the 
>slow speeds found in the 3rd octave.  It is simply below the threshold
of 
>perception unless one is specifically trained AND looking for it. 
>   All of the above applies to ET.  Since I have found so many
customers that 
>greatly prefer a more "Victorian" ET than an absolute clinical one, I
don't 
>worry about sacrificing the thirds progression in ET before I
compromise any of 
>the others. There isn't anything particularly musically magical about
13.7 
>cents wide. 
>Regards,  
>  
>Ed Foote RPT 
>http://www.uk-piano.org/edfoote/index.html
>www.uk-piano.org/edfoote/well_tempered_piano.html
> 
>_______________________________________________
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