[CAUT] lacquor

[Horace Greeley]

Chris,

At 08:31 PM 6/16/2006, you wrote:
>Horace, I think there is another way to look at keytop and that is as a
>cherry on top effect and I apply it to specific string cuts with a toothpick
>and that's all I use it for. Dan Harteau from Detroit area showed me this
>technique and I have it very effective for the last few years.

What you are describing here is how and why the use of keytop was 
originally introduced - customers would almost-but-not-quite like the 
"brilliance" of a specific piano...whilst they were out having lunch 
with the salesperson, someone from the service department would throw 
a light keytop solution across the tops of the hammers, wait a bit, 
and then smooth things out with some "sugar coating"...Voila!...a 
sale.  Before long, however, it had mutated into being used for/as a 
primary voicing medium, especially, after Franz retired, in the C&A department.

>  That and the
>top 4 or 5 notes are the only way I use it but in that case I use acetone as
>a thinner and think it combines better when the lacquer underneath has been
>thinned with acetone. Or is it that it seems not to combine well with the
>lacquer thinner and the acetone is better by comparison.

If there is time, which there seldom is, anymore, the lacquer thinner 
will give you a more solid base for shaping and voicing.  Acetone 
burns off a too low a temperature, and leaves more hardener close to 
the surface of the hammer, even when it is fairly well flooded 
in.  This is especially noticeable when using a thicker solution, but 
appears to happen consistently otherwise, as well.

>Well anyway I must
>agree a good result can be had without ever using the stuff at all but there
>are those situations when I'm glad to have it.

Oh, yes...absolutely!

>Incidentally Kent Webb's most recent (a few weeks ago) indication to me was
>to mix their lacquer 8-1 to get used to it and then work thicker from there.
>It is water white nitrocellulose lacquer 24% solids and available from
>Steinway Parts.

That approach, and/or using lacquer sanding sealer in the same 
ratios, is what I always suggest for people experimenting with this 
kind of voicing.  FWIW, this is another advantage of using lacquer or 
sanding sealer over keytop...that is, in lighter solutions, and 
especially when using lacquer thinner instead of acetone, it is 
possible to add more hardener more easily.  Once the keytop "sets", 
it is not going to be too subject to moving around.

Best.

Horace


>Chris Solliday
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Horace Greeley" <hgreeley at stanford.edu>
>To: "College and University Technicians" <caut at ptg.org>
>Sent: Friday, June 16, 2006 10:58 AM
>Subject: Re: [CAUT] lacquor
>
>
> >
> > Hi, Chris,
> >
> > At 07:13 AM 6/16/2006, you wrote:
> > >Horace, Kent Webb told me the stuff they sell to us techs now is the
>stuff
> > >from Seagraves.
> >
> > Yes, thanks!  After posting, I found an earlier EM about that.
> >
> > >I agree with you about alternatives although if you ever
> > >anticipate using keytop then it is best to be consistent and us acetone
>as a
> > >thinner for both lacquer and keytop material.
> >
> > Hmmm...I disagree, but then, I think that the acetone/keytop stuff is
> > highly overrated.  It's good for fast and dirty, which is why it was
> > originally introduced (and, not in the C&A department).  Tonally,
> > it's a mess.  Moreover, with either lacquer or plastic, acetone burns
> > off too quickly to give really good saturation...but, I do recognize
> > that this is very much a minority view.
> >
> > Best.
> >
> > Horace
> >
> >
> >
> > >Chris Solliday
> > >----- Original Message -----
> > >From: "Horace Greeley" <hgreeley at stanford.edu>
> > >To: "College and University Technicians" <caut at ptg.org>
> > >Sent: Friday, June 16, 2006 2:17 AM
> > >Subject: Re: [CAUT] lacquor
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Hi, Debra & Chris,
> > > >
> > > > Unless things have changed a great deal, the stuff sold from S&S is
> > > > automotive (often acrylic) lacquer.  It mixes well enough with other
> > > > lacquers which may have been applied, less well with keytop.
>Depending on
> > > > the circumstance, I would suggest using lacquer thinner, rather than
> > > > acetone.  While the thinner will certainly take longer to evaporate,
>it
> > > > will do a better job of mixing in with whatever is already extant.
> > > >
> > > > If you are starting out with a fresh set of hammers, and are not used
>to
> > > > using lacquer, I would suggest using white lacquer sanding sealer,
>again
> > > > with lacquer thinner.  Sanding sealer tends to break down more
>quickly,
> > > > and, _generally_ will not develop the dreaded crunch avoided by so
>many
> > > > folks.
> > > >
> > > > The availablility of real nitrocellulous might also be a function of
>where
> > > > you live, as well.  It has been easier to find in some states than in
> > > > others.
> > > >
> > > > If you want more, write me directly.
> > > >
> > > > Best regards.
> > > >
> > > > Horace
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Quoting Chris Solliday <solliday at ptd.net>:
> > > >
> > > > > Debra, If you are looking for enough lacquer to voice with, Steinway
> > > > > Parts has it. I think they sell a gallon at a time, if I remember
>right,
> > > > > which for voicing is practically a life time supply, except there is
>a
> > > > > shorter shelf life than our lives. Otherwise you will find it comes
>in
> > > > > large quanities for finishing. I have, in a pinch, used acrylic
>lacquer
> > > > > sold in auto supply stores but it is probably not the best for
>mixing
> > > > > with other lacquer already in the hammer. I must say though that the
>few
> > > > > sets of hammers I used it on sounded and continue to sound as good
>(3-4
> > > > > years later) as any, despite predictions to the contrary.  But
>really
> > >the
> > > > > right thing is to use the Steinway lacquer. Around here we try and
>go in
> > > > > together 2, 3, or 4 people at a time and share the order, mostly
>because
> > > > > of the shelf life issue. Someone else can provide better advice
> > >regarding
> > > > > finishing supplies as I don't do any big stinky jobs like that.
> > > > > Chris Solliday
> > > > >   ----- Original Message -----
> > > > >   From: Debra Feiger
> > > > >   To: caut at ptg.org
> > > > >   Sent: Thursday, June 15, 2006 11:08 PM
> > > > >   Subject: [CAUT] lacquor
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >   I'm having trouble finding nitrocellulous lacquor in paint stores.
> > >Can
> > > > > someone tell me where I might find it?  Thanks
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