Hey, Greg, no offense taken. It was a very natural question, and, as I explained, the first that occurred to me as well. I'm not terribly sensitive to disagreement, criticism, and the like. In fact, I often hope to provoke disagreement, and to be proved wrong/mistaken. That's one of the main reasons I post to the list, it's how I learn new perspectives and whatnot, by being unafraid to be wrong (though I try to acknowledge errors when they are pointed out). Regards, Fred Sturm University of New Mexico fssturm at unm.edu On Mar 8, 2006, at 7:21 PM, Greg Newell wrote: > Hey Fred, > Thanks for the reply. I'm concerned that you may have taken > me in a way that I had not intended. I'm sure that you provide > wonderful and stable tunings to whomever you may be serving. I just > thought I toss out the idea. I should have known that you would > have tried different tuning schemes to narrow down your search in > an answer to this puzzle. Next time I will try and be a little more > thoughtful in my response. > > best, > greg > > > At 07:36 PM 3/8/2006, you wrote: >> Hi Greg, >> When I first noticed this, I suspected tuning technique, >> sequence, >> whatever. I experimented in many ways. Initially I tuned >> completely aurally, >> completely strip muted. I pulled unisons in different ways, >> sometimes all >> right strings from the top (pulling the mute one at a time), then >> left >> strings from the bottom. And other permutations, particularly when I >> switched to SAT about ten years ago (and was able to quantify it). >> I have >> tuned left string first, right string first, middle string first. >> Doesn't >> matter. I have convinced myself over the years that I can actually >> do a >> solid tuning, but that severe RH change will affect my unisons. >> Now the extreme case I mentioned, on Yamaha G-2s, happens in >> the late >> summer, after a rise of a good 40%, with the average pitch of the >> piano at >> +25 - 40 cents. Far more common are more subtle changes. But it >> was the G-2s >> that really got me thinking about it, making notes to myself, >> documenting. >> I now use RCT, and it is very convenient for observing this >> phenomenon. >> In pitch raise mode, simply read left and right strings >> alternately, unison >> by unison, as you tune upward (or whatever direction). Then go >> back and read >> those numbers, and see if you have a saw tooth pattern for the >> most part. >> Sometimes it's subtle, just a cent or two on average, other times >> it is >> quite striking. >> Again, I don't claim to have reliable answers to why, but I do >> have a >> pretty good wealth of years of observation. I'll throw out another >> couple >> things I have observed, having to do with pitch change in response >> to RH >> along the treble bridge: >> 1) On most pianos, the typical pattern has a large change at the >> bottom of >> the treble bridge, lowest plain wires, which decreases up to the >> treble >> break, then just above the break there is a big leap of pitch change. >> Strangely, Hamiltons do something different. Same large change at >> the bottom >> of the bridge, tapering to about midway towards the break, but >> then pitch >> change increases again approaching the break. Above the break, >> pitch change >> is suddenly less. >> 2) High treble varies a lot from model to model. On Hamiltons and >> some >> Steinways (especially 1098s) the top couple octaves tend to be the >> furthest >> off pitch, maybe 40 cents sharp where the tenor was 25 cents. >> Yamahas tend >> to have more movement elsewhere (tenor, just above treble break), >> but the >> high treble is closer to pitch than other areas. >> I suppose there must be reasons, but I haven't found them. But >> I know >> what to expect, and it makes my life seem a little more rational, >> less >> random, I guess. >> >> Regards, >> Fred Sturm >> University of New Mexico >> >> >> On 3/7/06 8:29 PM, "Greg Newell" <gnewell at ameritech.net> wrote: >> >> > Fred, >> > First I'd like to thank both you and Ron >> > Nossaman for your patience in explaining why you >> > fret as much over the humidity changes as you do. >> > It does seem that you can make rather astute >> > predictions in the resultant outcome of a >> > seemingly minute climactic change. Admirable! >> > I have to wonder about why I don't see >> > anywhere near the left, center, right string >> > discrepancies that you do. While the pianos in >> > the university that I serve do go rather >> > drastically out of tune with the change of >> > seasons (abominable building) I still don't see >> > the unison problems that you do. Those kinds of >> > differences would make the pianos sound rather >> > hideous wouldn't they? I may get that much rise >> > and fall but it's mostly together over the three strings of the >> unison. >> > I cannot dispute your observations about >> > the bridge pins but I also have to wonder if >> > tuning sequence plays some part in it or not. Do >> > you use any electronics? If so how do you use >> > them. If the piano is in a practice room would >> > you ever feel comfortable enough tuning from the >> > bottom up by machine and then checking the end >> > result aurally? Seems I remember that Al >> > Sanderson maintains that better stability is >> > achieved this way. Also, how are these strings >> > rendering across bearing points? If you tuned >> > with a temperment strip and then tuned in the >> > outside strings after setting bearings then you >> > could be setting up different tensions in the >> > wires even though they sounded fine when you were >> > done. This could be especially prevelant if the >> > strings weren't rendering all that well. >> > I'll quit while I'm behind here and >> > patiently allow corrections from the list. Thanks fellas (and >> ladies too). >> > >> > best, >> > Greg >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ >> caut list info: https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives > Greg Newell > Greg's Piano Forté > mailto:gnewell at ameritech.net > www.gregspianoforte.com > > _______________________________________________ > caut list info: https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: https://www.moypiano.com/ptg/caut.php/attachments/20060309/b61f14b7/attachment-0001.html
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