Nancy: Just wanted to add that I use Ronsen (either Bacon or Wurzen) on probably 80 - 90% of what I do-but then most of what I do are Steinways. I make exception in certain performance situations where I need heavier and denser and/or if the customer preference is for something beefier. The danger, suggested in another post, of holding up one manufacturer's master voicer's opinion as the gospel on what makes good piano tone is that each manufacturer has their own tonal model. Setting up a vintage 1920's NY Steinway with the Yamaha model in mind or using the same criteria for determining the proper voice would be a big mistake, in my view. Yamaha does what they do quite well but, as you know, it would be inappropriate on a piano with a lower tension scale, lighter weight soundboard and whose original hammer design was soft and lightweight to go along with it just as putting a Bacon felt hammer on a Yamaha with higher tension scale and heavier board to go with it would also be a mistake-though I have done it on one occasion that I can think of where the customer really wanted a very soft and fuzzy type of sound. Steinway does present it's own problems because nobody really makes a hammer that is quite like the one's on those early pianos. It's all about custom work which means taking the time to communicate about customer goals. It also means, in this case, selecting the best fit hammer for the piano and the customer. It takes a bit more time to make that determination and you have to charge for it. But you don't need to put on the entire set. David Love davidlovepianos at comcast.net www.davidlovepianos.com -----Original Message----- From: David Love [mailto:davidlovepianos at comcast.net] Sent: Saturday, April 19, 2008 11:35 AM To: 'College and University Technicians' Subject: RE: [CAUT] Abel select Vs. Ronsen-Wurzen (I corrected the subject line as it was starting to bother me) I always carry a sample kit (so to speak) of a variety of hammers glued to shanks. You can pretty much put a Steinway shank on any piano and make it work for trial purposes. I carry samples of Ronsen Wurzen and Bacon, Renner Blues, Abel Selects (and more recently Abel "Natural Felt" on which the jury is still out). Those four or five hammers cover the range of soft to hard. By putting on a couple of samples in the tenor and lower treble you can get a sense of what the piano will produce. I don't worry much about the bass and high treble for sampling. My time to sample and discuss is part of an estimate "fee" which I handle in various ways if they decide to go ahead with the job. Otherwise, I might just try them during a standard servicing appointment. While it's not always easy to extrapolate an entire piano you can get a pretty good sense of where you want to start anyway. Since all hammers can be manipulated up or down to some degree relatively easily, you don't have to hit it right on, just in the ballpark. The time involved is not that great and you'd be surprised how many hammer jobs you can sell this way. Most people are unaware of how different hammers can really influence the tonal output and often go for years unhappy with their instrument because they didn't realize the possibilities. Most suppliers will send you couple of samples if you ask. My choice is a hammer around note 40 and one around note 60-right in the heart of the killer octave. David Love davidlovepianos at comcast.net www.davidlovepianos.com -----Original Message----- From: caut-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:caut-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf Of Nancy Salmon Sent: Saturday, April 19, 2008 9:23 AM To: College and University Technicians Subject: Re: [CAUT] Abel aelect Vs. Rosner-Wurtzen I've avidly followed this thread. I use Ronsen myself and have been well pleased. I'll certainly try some others. My question is this: you are all talking about a relatively expensive part and highly skilled/priced labor for trial & error experimentation. How do work this out with the customer; what if you or the customer doesn't like them? You now have a used/new set of hammers. Nancy Salmon RPT Frostburg State University MD On Fri, Apr 18, 2008 at 9:40 AM, David Love <davidlovepianos at comcast.net> wrote: It depends on the piano and what the customer wants. I've changed many sets of Abel and Renner hammers off older Steinways where no amount of needling was going to achieve the tone that the customer wanted and put on Bacon Felt hammers that were darn near perfect after some shaping and polishing. So my conclusion and experience is considerably different than yours and I encourage people to sample different types of hammers and see for themselves. I think they'll find that the one hammer suits all is what's "overdriven" here. David Love davidlovepianos at comcast.net www.davidlovepianos.com -----Original Message----- From: caut-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:caut-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf Of Richard Brekne Sent: Friday, April 18, 2008 12:07 AM To: caut at ptg.org Subject: [CAUT] Abel aelect Vs. Rosner-Wurtzen Hi I think really that your post goes to show that just about any reasonbly made hammer can work quite well in just about any piano. I'm coming more and more to the conclusion that very much of the to do about differerent hammer types is quite overdriven. To be sure, a hammer can be made so as to be impossible, or nearly so, to work up any real elasticity... and you do have the real qualitative difference between hammers meant to be needled and those meant for addition of lacquer. But that said if you have a decently made set in front of you, you can get them to work. Some may require a bit more work then others... some not. With regard to hammers meant to be needled.... I'd also like to point out that it increasingly seems to me that there is no such thing as the hammer that just sounds good from the get go... and we can leave them as is. Recent experiences showed me quite clearly that even moderately soft hammers benefit greatly (with regards to increased elasticity and dynamic range) if needled to release lower and mid shoulder tensions even if this requires a good soaking of very thin solids lacquer afterwards. Indeed, this has become really a third road for me, and a surprising one at that. Cheers RicB Hi All, I was wandering if any of you have tried the Abel "Select" from Pianotek vs. other hammers. I have put them in a Mason & Hamlin CC, two 9'2" Bechstein ENs, and several Steinways. I have found them to give a great sound with little voicing. I have been told that from one of the professors that played a new Steinway B at another university that while the new B had a great sound, it could not match the sound of the Steinway B that I put the Abel "Select" hammers on. I was also told by all of the staff that neither of the Bechsteins sounded nearly as good as they do now. I was just told by a guest artist that she loved the Mason & Hamlin because of the beautiful coloring of the tone of the piano. Just curious to see if anyone else out there has tried these hammers and how they liked them. Bill Balmer, RPT -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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