Hi Don, Supporting what you said, I also understand that as you tune and the string goes through the agraffe or over the V-bar, the "level" at the strike point can also change. IOW, make them perfectly level with the bubble level, then adjust pitch on a string. Voila! The strings aren't level anymore. This is due to the string "rocking" slightly and pushing it up or down a ways back at the strike point. I studied this a bit trying to figure out why I had to level strings so often. What changes? This "tilting" of the string from tuning seems to be one culprit that no one, to my knowledge, has addressed. It's easy to see once you're looking for it. What do you think? Regards, Jim Busby BYU From: caut-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:caut-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf Of Don Mannino Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 10:12 AM To: keithspiano at gmail.com; caut at ptg.org Subject: Re: [CAUT] String Level I'd like to put in a different opinion: A bubble level is not really necessary. One can also use the hammer heads for reference, because it is the hammer / string interface that we are really wanting to get perfect, not an ideal string level. This is because strings are not perfectly straight, even when under tension. They have slight curvature, and once they are leveled with the bubble gauge, this is only correct at that one location - 6 inches down the strings it will be a little different. When working with new strings I start by doing an even lift of every string with the string hook, just to get the worst of the agraffe / capo arc tightened up. Start with the pitch sharp, hook all the wires, then tune it again. With older pianos this probably isn't going to be needed. With the action out of the piano, raise the hammers to strike point with something under the shanks, and gang file the hammer tops for perfect level. Use a straightedge along the hammer tops to verify that the strike points are perfectly level, and take your time with a good light behind the hammers to verify that the tops are level. Using fine grade sandpaper to do this helps. Then place a strip of felt under the knuckles (those red key cover felts work, or use thick nameboard felt) and carefully ease the action back into the piano. The felt will eliminate letoff, and allow you to press the key, blocking the hammers and raising the dampers. Now pluck strings and hook the wire to get them mated to the hammers. The main problem I had with using a bubble level is that the dampers are in the way, and the strings are not as straight as we would like them to be. They continue to curve a little under the dampers, so even with perfect bubble leveling and perfect hammer filing, the fit will need to be tweaked quite a bit. If you level the hammers carefully, then use the hammers as a reference for hooking the wire, you only have to touch up hammer filing on a few notes with stubborn strings. I should add: if you can do the bubble level job without the dampers, so that you level the strings right at the strike point, it does work very well. Don Mannino ________________________________ From: caut-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:caut-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf Of Keith Roberts Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 7:07 PM To: caut at ptg.org Subject: Re: [CAUT] pinning I had to level strings for my mentor, Dale Erwin. I had never done it without Joe's string level. (I had introduced the tool to him) so I aked how it was done without the string level. He said with the finger or eye or whatever and told me to try. So I did about five or six different methods. Some technical, some feely. Then I checked with the level and not a one was close. When I told Dale, he said that was what he found too. So the best (I think) without the level would be to assume the agraffes are level and draw the hook along the string from about 2 inches out on up to the agraffe. Treat each string equal and mate the hammer to the strings. This seems to bring the strings into a close level. Then you adjust only if the sound is errant. or the required filing of the head is too much and indicates uneven strings. The hammer might be the best level yo have if it is aligned and shaped properly. Keith Roberts On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 6:39 PM, Mark Dierauf <pianotech at nhpianos.com<mailto:pianotech at nhpianos.com>> wrote: This is my current kit. I use Joe Goss's bubble gauge<http://www.mothergoosetools.com/other_tools/string_level.shtml> to check for level. When first setting it on a unison, I slightly depress the center string - if the gauge moves, then the center is higher than the outside strings. With the center string depressed I can also determine if the unison leans way or the other. Then I use one of the two tools pictured to actually move the wire. The top tool<http://www.faulkpiano.com/SpecialtyTools/display.php?id=1> is Charles Faulk's string leveling tool. I find that this works especially well in the agraffe section, and will also lower a string that's slightly too high. The tool exerts a lot of leverage, so care is needed, but I find it very handy. The other tool is what I've seen at the Steinway factory, and is easily made from a length of brass rod, a length of piano wire, and a leather disk. The tool is placed upright on the unison behind the capo bar (on the front bearing felt), and the wire reaches over the capo to hook the string near the front termination. Again, the tool exerts a lot of leverage so some care is needed. I had previously used the Maninno hook, but found that tool prone to slip off the string too easily, something that neither of these two tools will do. - Mark Dierauf Error! Filename not specified. David Ilvedson wrote: Richard, Re-reading some old email...how do you level strings? Everyone has their way of doing this... David Ilvedson, RPT Pacifica, CA 94044 ----- Original message ---------------------------------------- From: "Richard Brekne" <ricb at pianostemmer.no><mailto:ricb at pianostemmer.no> To: caut at ptg.org<mailto:caut at ptg.org> Received: 4/13/2008 11:46:09 AM Subject: [CAUT] pinning Hi David I know there are several opinions about how pinning can affect tone and/or if it does at all to begin with but my experience tells me that as solid a pinning as is possible without compromising the ability of the action to play and repeat quickly is a precept for good voicing and good projection. Whether it is because the tighter pining causes a more solid path and impact moment, and less dispersion of impact energy back through the system or not... I really dont know. I think like many such subjects, the actual physics is something we do a lot of guessing at but really dont <<know>> much about. That said... the difference in sound and projection is real enough and its one of the things I do very early on in any full voicing/regulation beef up I do on an instrument. Like hammer mating and unisons being in a level plane. Cheers RicB I have been having some interesting time with our Hamburg Steinway here at Stanford. This is 9 years old. I filed the hammers for the first time...I know, not heavy playing...but I repinned for the 2nd time in a year. Went from 4 grams to 2 grams or so...I decided to repin at 5 to 6 grams. The tone is projecting (tone above the strings) to beat the band...the combination of careful filing and repinning has, imho, brought the piano back to it's new piano sound...I'd appreciate comment on center pinning/tone and concert instruments... 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