On Jan 13, 2009, at 6:28 PM, A440A at aol.com wrote: > I wonder how applicable that was to the tuners of the 18th and > 19th > centuries. The Thomas Young tuning instructions were to make 6 > evenly tempered > fifths in one direction, and 6 pure fifths in the other, (beginning > from C). > So, the intentional tempering of fifths was part of the most refined > tuning > system devised. > I think tuners of yore had a different mind set from our equally > tempered > goal. They were aware of the "character of the keys", which doesn't > exist in > ET and was never taught to us as a goal. We were taught, (Ludwig > excepted), to > strive for a temperament in which no fifth was audibly "out of > tune", whereas > earlier tuners were more than familiar with a variety of fifths, > (having been > exposed to meantone, a wild fifth was not so alien). > Today, we may have a tendency towards clarity in the fifths, > since all > the ET thirds are whacked out of tune. In days past, in the era of > tonal music, > the staggered progression of thirds via the circle of fifths could > have been > the focus. > Regards, > > Ed Foote RPT Most of the instructions out there during the 19th century, including Hummel's, Broadwood's Tuner's Guide, and Claude Montal's, were intending ET, and they were quite definitely a circle of 5ths, each narrowed by an amount described as more or less as small as the ear can hear. Young's instructions are obviously for a non-ET, and they are pretty straightforward. How much common currency did Young's have? I think very little compared to the many, many manuals put out by manufacturers, and individual books of instruction like Montal's. BTW, Montal is very specific in rejecting the methods of the past, naming them (just as Hummel does, quoted in Jorgensen). Montal was a very respected tuner and teacher of tuners in Paris, the cultural and scientific capital of the world of the time. You are making a pretty strong assumption in saying that [all?] tuners of yore had a different mindset. I think that there were undoubtedly strong traditions, often passed from father to son to grandson. (In fact, our local elder statesman tuner, now in his late 80s, learned from his father who learned from his father. And there are definitely some quirks to how he tunes). I am happy to acknowledge that such traditions persisted. OTOH, I simply can't find a way of interpreting instructions for ET, repeated by so many sources, at other than face value. They are often quite specific in asking that all 5ths be equally tempered. I suspect that, like today, many tuners were largely self-taught, learned from a booklet and their own experience to a large degree. They would do their best to follow the rules. Others would be very much taken by the "latest and best" trends of the day, progress towards the future. They would be proud of how they had succeeded in mastering the new methods, and left the old fashioned behind. The propaganda in favor of ET was immense, far greater than any counter movement. Hence the widespread belief through the middle of the 20th century that it had pretty much always been that way, and that ET was the ultimate end of progress. What I am saying, in essence, is that there must have been a large portion of tuners actively trying to tune the closest ET they possibly could, just like there were in the 20th century. Alongside them were other traditions. I'll also note that there isn't a lot of historical written evidence for the notion of key color variants based on size of thirds, as an aesthetic consideration when composing. It seems to me that this notion is largely a 20th century extrapolation. Not that it is entirely without basis, but just that the direct evidence that composers thought in that way is slim to none. If you can point me to some, I would be grateful. Regards, Fred Sturm University of New Mexico fssturm at unm.edu
This PTG archive page provided courtesy of Moy Piano Service, LLC