Hi Jim You wrote, "Did you get my latest pure5ths temperament which I put on the list > yesterday. It spells out quite clearly (I think) to not change the A4. > That is the only note that is ever correct on any piano (we hope)." Damn, I knew I would make a mistake sooner or later.... I meant A3. Infact I went back to look to double check that you called the A440 A4 and then somehow forgot to change it to A3 in my post. Very Sorry. Oh well in an illogical system it is easy to make mistakes. I mean who ever thought of calling the first A on a piano A0? I can guess the answer. There were times when the first note on the piano was C, and it was called C1, so when 3 lower notes were added, they couldn't change the nomenclature. I wonder then how they name the extra notes on Bosendorfers But if it was the American Accoustical Society that started (ended up with) the A0 -C1 nomenclature, it seems it was expressly for the piano, which seems odd in that an accoustical society might want to talk about other key board instruments, so how did they call the notes on a pipe organ, or an electric organ, or a synthesizer? And what was wrong with the C c c' system which I am also guessing was already in use for a significant period of time? They could have just as easily "standardized" that one, instead of inventing something that becomes convoluted as the piano evolves. The C c c' c" seems simple enough to me, and avoids the confusion of the 5th A on a piano being called A4. Well I guess it is a nemumonic, A4 = A440. Any how if you can remember c' is Middle C you can talk about harpsichords (either keyboard), organs, (either keyboard), clavichords, electric pianos. Tuners of them might just have an interest in trying our new temperament. Why should they have to figure out which C is middle C? In fact with the increasing diversity of keyboard instruments in the last 50 years, I think it makes good sense to use the c' Middle C system. Maybe its too simple, although you do have to know your notes in an octave. That A440 is the next A above M C, which would make it a'. And when it comes to intervals, which tuning is all about anyway, how would you rather type out intervals, c' - a' or C4 - A4. Quick where is this third? a - c' ? Yes, this third is also a minor third. Quick what is the tenth down from middle C? G# - c' or perhaps c' - Ab. I don't have a music theory book, unless it is some where in Piston. Which brings up another advantage, if one is talking about notes without a music staff, it seems more universal to talk about the interval Ab -c', than Ab2 - C 4. How and why would you want to find the chord G3 D4 G4 on a harpsichord when g d' g' makes sense no matter how many C's it has or which one could be called 1 ? Jim mentioned there were 7 different uses of the c' C notation. If that is the case, I would pitch for the establishment of middle C as c. That way the notes below Middle C are in uppercase, and the notes above are in small letters, Which is an advantage for piano tuners. There is no mistake about the fourth G c, and c g the fifth. The temp octave then is A a, or F a if you please. So if talking about the beat rates of F A, A c#, c# f, f a, not to much confusion, no missing a ' on a computer screen from blury eyes, and a whole lot less typing. Name this tune c e f g / c f g a/ c g a bb/ c'.... Its a waltz and It isn't Chopin or if it is, which one? Now if we could only get timeing in notation. Which would send the copy right lawyers scrambling. Hmm we could use periods commas semi colons and colons. Scuse me while I ramble..... nothing for quarter notes, commas for eights, semi's for half notes, and colons.... OK here goes 3/4... / c e,f,g / c f,g,a / c g,a,bb / c' ; c' /} /c' d',c'bb /bb c',bb,a /a bb,a,g / f e d / repeat from beginning. An ASCII Fake Book.... too hard to read though. the B flats does it in, and what about sixteenth notes? Could you please tell what pitch an 8 foot C is? and am curious as to what an 8 foot stopped pipe is. Richard Moody ---------- > From: Jim <pianotoo@IMAP2.ASU.EDU> > To: Richard Moody <remoody@easnetsd.com> > Cc: pianotech@ptg.org > Subject: Re: ramblin' (tuning by pure 5ths) > Date: Thursday, June 26, 1997 1:56 AM > > Hi Richard: > > Did you get my latest pure5ths temperament which I put on the list > yesterday. It spells out quite clearly (I think) to not change the A4. > That is the only note that is ever correct on any piano (we hope). > > Tuning pure 5ths temperament is just like tuning the Baldassin/Sanderson > temperament at the beginning except the octaves A-A and F-F must be made > wider (almost 2.0 bps), and consequently the 4ths are almost twice their > normal speed. Everything else falls in quite similar to regular equal > temperament. > > I interpose a 5th early on just to make estimating the octave spread > comparison to the 4ths a little easier. > > When you print out that set of instructions, you may have better success. > If you have never tuned the Baldassin/Sanderson temperament, I highly > recommend it to you and everyone else. The latest versions including the > Kimbell/Tremper/Coleman variety are a little more helpful. Once a person > can tune that temperament easily, tuning the pure 5ths temperament > variation is a snap. > > The notation using C c c' c'' etc. is very confusing. Historically there > have been I think 7 different varieties of this system. The American > Acoustical Society adopted a system where the lowest C is called C1 and > the highest C is called C8. The notes below C1 are called A0, A#0, and B0. > The piano industry likes to use note numbers starting with A0 as note 1, > and C8 as note 88. These two systems are most popular in piano talk. > Many organists and Harpsichordist still like to use the terms 16 ft, > 8 ft, 4 ft, 2 ft etc. This confuses piano people. This was very logical > to organ people where a rank of pipes starting with 8' length was called > the 8' rank. We've never had any pianos or harpsichords which started with > a C which was 8' or 16' in length, so that terminology loses some of its > significance in pianos except as related to organ pitches etc. > > Jim Coleman, Sr. > > On Thu, 26 Jun 1997, Richard Moody wrote: > > > I was thinking of trying to lower the A4 by as much as it takes to > > get a pure fifth. > > Are you thinking of A4 as note # 37? Note # 37 is A3 (the 4th A on the > piano.) I know, this seems confusing until you realize that the lowest > A on the piano is called A0 in American terminology. > > However this assumes one is tuning from an > > established ET octave. > > I have no problem tuning tempered octaves, but tuning pure fifths > > is, well very unusual. It is not the same as tuning pure octaves, at > > least so it seems in these early stages. Perhaps it is because diff > > and more remote partials are involved. > > Tuning pure 5ths is just as easy as tuning tempered 5ths, You just make > the 6th-10th test equal instead of tempering the 10th slower. > > You use the same partials in your judgments. > > > I am impressed by hearing pure fifths in music (from a keyboard) I > > had grown up hearing tempered and then tuned ET for. I think though > > in > > this second attempt I came out (was forced to smaller octaves, out of > > ingrained habit) that I really ended up with tempered fifths, but > > much purer than I have ever known. Maybe one has to evolve into > > this. I think what will happen to aural tuners is that on successive > > attempts we will get bolder with wider octaves. Or perhaps become > > like the early tuners and stick the wolf where the sun don't shine. : > > ). > > There will be no wolf in pure 5ths temperament. The wider octaves eat up > the wolf. However, the wider octaves do force the 4ths to be wider, but > nothing like a wolf. > > > It is also easy to make errors. Like when I tuned a' to d' pure > > thinking that tuning the next fourth down, d' to a, I would get a > > stretched octave, and then wonder why I didn't. Like duh. While we > > are on that subject, I wonder why the notation I used above isn't in > > more general use? Isn't that what organists and harpsichordists > > use? Why let the compass of the keyboard dictate nomenclature? And > > why start at the bottom note even? Every keyboard has a middle C why > > not start there? Besides its so simple. Middle C is c' the C > > above > > is c" the C below MC is c the C below that is C > > which is,, hold on > > I gotta look it up,, is C2. Anyhow Groves should be definitive on > > this so some one with more immediate access correct me if wrong. Even > > c''' (C5) is no problem is ASCII. Also tell me if my guess is right > > that C1 would be C' . > > There are too many systems similar to this that get confusing. > > > > If you ask me, I think it would be more logical to have the octave > > below middle C in caps and the octave above in smalls, and then the > > primes, but logic and music when not a conendrum, (hmm can't spell > > that, how bout "conidium"), is on a very esoteric level. > > Maybe I'll put Jim's tuning procedure in the "traditional"? > > nomenclature > > to see if it is really easier. But some one with Groves please make > > sure I have this right, or AGO at least. : ) > > > > Ricahrd Moody > > > > ---------- > > > From: Jim <pianotoo@IMAP2.ASU.EDU> > > > To: Frank Weston <waco@ari.net> > > > Cc: pianotech@ptg.org > > > Subject: Re: ramblin' (tuning by pure 5ths) > > > Date: Tuesday, June 24, 1997 11:50 PM > > > > > > > > > As I had promised others earlier, I am now sending a tuning system > > for > > > aurally tuning a temperament which I have proven out myself aurally > > > independently and in comparison with the stretched Sat tuning used > > > previously. > > > > > > snip.... > > > > > > > > > > > > Jim Coleman, Sr. > > > > > > PS I would sure like to hear back from the brave sould who actually > > try > > > this. But be sure to play some music on it before you tell me how > > much > > > you do not like the single octaves. JWC > > > > > > Rac. C#minor, Apashionsonata :), Pathetique, The funeral > > dirge,(Chopin > > Prelude). Actually with out octaves and chords how do you notice it?> > > > "The proof of the pudding is in the eating." The same goes for tuning > and playing. > > Jim Coleman, Sr.
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