was accu-tuner now tuning question

[Doug Hershberger]

Bill,
   Thanks very much for your explanation.
Doug Hershberger
----- Original Message -----
From: <Billbrpt@AOL.COM>
To: <pianotech@ptg.org>
Sent: Thursday, July 15, 1999 11:02 AM
Subject: Re: was accu-tuner now tuning question


> In a message dated 7/15/99 12:28:14 PM EST, you write:
>
> << When I set the octave to the machine and then do
>  the tests the octave sounds kind of flat or at the very most pure. I'm
>  wondering if others have observed this or I have just been pushing the
>  envelope of stretch so long that I'm used to this more aggressive style.
It
>  is most noticeable on low inharmonicity pianos. It seems like with a
>  Steinway there is more room to customize the octaves and the accu-tuner
>  seems to agree with that. >>
>
> Your observations are correct and you are doing what most, but not all,
> tuners
> do these days.  The Steinway piano has more inharmonicity than most other
> pianos so it lends itself more easily to a wider temperament range octave
> with 5ths that are less tempered.  If you try to tune a low inharmonicity
> piano such as a Mason & Hamlin, Kawai or Baldwin 7 & 9 foot grand that
way,
> you will have trouble making the same compromise work.
>
> Using the inharmonicity to "absorb" the comma is one way of making the
piano
> sound a little better in tune with itself.  However, it remains true that
if
> you favor any one interval, octave, 5th, 3rd or otherwise (also double and
> triple octaves), you will inevitably cause another interval to be more
> compromised.
>
> Therefore, using a lot of stretch in the temperament range will cause your
> 3rds to beat faster and more harshly but it can help you have less of a
> problem making the outer octaves sound better in tune and have a more
> brilliant, better projecting and appealing sound.  Using the least amount
of
> stretch in the mid range will make close harmony played there sound much
> sweeter.  If the piano you are tuning will not be used by someone who
plays
> loud, fast and brilliant passages in the high treble but rather close
harmony
> mostly in the middle, you might well not want to see how far you can go
with
> the octave stretching compromises.
>
> Dr. Sanderson, the inventor of the Accu-Tuner suggests that an ideal
octave
> in the midrange be a 4:2 octave + 1 cent.  That is to say, greater than a
4:2
> octave by a small amount.  It may, in some cases be a 6:3 octave.  I
usually
> use both the 4:2 and 6:3 tests to prove that I have a compromise between
the
> two unless I am going for a minimal or maximal amount of stretch.
>
> Here are some comments I made recently in a private post:
>
> <<<< I would like to put this question to some friends of me who is very
good
> jazzpianists.
>  Is it possible to ask them this question about stretch?
>  Have I got the right idea about stretch and will they understand the
> question? >>
>
> I think some may understand the concept of stretched octaves and some may
> not.  Some may call it a brighter or a sharper tuning if it is stretched a
> lot and a duller, softer, mellower or flatter tuning if it is not
stretched.
> One is not necessarily better than the other just as one temperament is
not
> better than the other, each one creates its own effect.
>
>  <<Other tuners here tend to tune the "A" [minimal stretch], but I like
"C"
> [maximum stretch] the most (Maybe "B"  [moderate stretch]in
>  the middle).
>  What do you like?>>
>
> I would say that my personal preference is the same as yours and it is
> preferred by most tuners but some like the "A"  or "B" description the
best.
>
>  <<Are there many different wishes here from pianists?>>
>
> Yes, and I think that their preferences are about the same as most piano
> technicians'.  You will occasionally meet someone who will deliberately
tell
> you not to stretch the octaves too much.  You will also have some, perhaps
> more, who will make a very deliberate point of telling you they want the
> upper octaves tuned "sharp".  You should do what the artist says in such a
> case.
>
>
> << Are there different wishes for different styles?>>
>
> Generally, for public performances of Jazz and Classical music of the
> Romantic era, and piano concertos, you would choose type C [maximum
stretch].
>  For early music in a chamber setting, type A [minimum stretch].  For a
> living room in someone's home, type B [moderate stretch] but you can also
> choose any type in any situation for special reasons or to comply with a
> specific request.
>
>  If you are using a Historical Temperament, you would use type A with the
> 17th Century temperaments, type B with the 18th Century and type C with
the
> 19th Century.  Again however, you can choose differently than the usual,
just
> as you may choose to drink red wine with poultry rather than white and you
> may have a dry white wine with a steak.  It is all a matter of taste and
> preference.
>
> << Am I on wrong track?>>
>
> In my opinion, you already have a good and correct idea about stretch.
You
> can educate the customer by telling them that the ear naturally wants to
hear
> pitches sharper, the higher you go on the scale.  Because the piano
strings
> have this curious phenomenon called Inharmonicity, where the higher
harmonics
> of every string are very sharp, you can manipulate the tuning to take
> advantage of this property to satisfy what the ear wants to really hear
> anyway.
>
> Every tuning decision has its consequences, however.  Any time you make
any
> given interval more in tune or pleasing to the ear, you cause another to
be
> less pleasing.  Tuning will always be an art of compromise.
>
>  Since the higher harmonics of any string are very sharp, very
> disproportionately sharp, you cannot favor them except in the very highest
> range of the piano.  They are also quick to decay.  This makes them less
> important than some of the lower harmonics.  Since you tune by ear, your
ear
> is probably making the best judgment already.  Those who are dependent on
> Electronic Tuner programs have not developed that judgment.>>
>
> The Accu-Tuner can tell you wether the piano you are working on has a low,
> moderate or high degree of inharmonicity.  This can also help you make the
> decision about how much stretch may be appropriate.
>
> I hope this helps your understanding.
>
> Sincerest regards,
> Bill Bremmer RPT
> Madison, Wisconsin