Last year I repinned a Feurich grand that had a lot of action noise and it turned out that the pin was loose in the yoke of the flange. Big difference in action noise and control for the pianist. A newer Mason & Hamlin had the same problem and complaints about the control. I noticed the tone seemed more focused after the work but hadn't bent that knowledge to this particular piano until your post and then it clicked. By the way I talked with the pianist this evening and he was ectatic. I will be checking the pinning as you say before I do any voicing in the future. Personally I would have thought that four swings might be a bit tight but it only took a slight adjustment to the rep spring screw to get that in line. I will look into the jack position and return but I also use your method and I especially want the feel of the jack coming back under the knuckle felt through the jack to be consistant from note to note. The wink can be very inconsistant and not reliable. If that jack will return under as drastic a situation as we are testing it will certainly return under normal play. I still have yet to try the steam voice but I do have just the piano to try it on. A Samick with impenetrable hammers. I literally can not get a single needle into the hammer more than a millimeter. They should use these in place of spent uranium in ammunition. Just as deadly but without the radiation problems. : } David I. Date sent: Sun, 06 Jun 1999 16:03:54 To: pianotech@ptg.org From: Roger Jolly <baldyam@sk.sympatico.ca> Subject: Re: Why? Send reply to: pianotech@ptg.org > Hi David, > Happy to hear you are a convert to checking centre pins. If you > want to improve this piano some more, and jump up the sustain and power > another notch, try fine tuning the jacks. At this vintage don't be suprised > if the jacks end up just a hair above the balancier. The check for jack > height that I use, is both feel and visual, but not just looking at the > hammer on the downward stroke for the traditional 'wink'. If you look > through the yoke of the flange you can observe the return of the jack, fine > tune untill you JUST see the jack sort of slow a little as the button > returns to the spoon, in other words the button is not crashing into the > spoon, but still a positive return. > I normally go through this, and the hammer line a couple of times, these > adjustment are inter active. > If the hammers have been reshaped, I'll bet the jack position is out, so > check this before starting on the above. > regards Roger > > > > At 06:58 PM 6/5/99 -0700, you wrote: > >Roger, > > > >This afternoon I went to our little local concert hall and > >checked the pinning on our 1958 Baldwin D. It has poor > >sustain and the tone is thin. The pinning was very loose and > >so I repinned the 2nd tenor and killer octave and the sustain > >returned with the tone. I pinned for 4 swings like you > >suggested. Thanks for the tip. The pianist tomorrow will be > >pleasantly surprised! > > > >David Ilvedson, RPT > > > >Date sent: Sat, 05 Jun 1999 15:28:37 > >To: pianotech@ptg.org > >From: Roger Jolly <baldyam@sk.sympatico.ca> > >Subject: Re: Why? > >Send reply to: pianotech@ptg.org > > > >> Hi David, > >> An after thought. You always get acertain amount of wobble > >> particularly on the angled hammers. Think of the weight distrubution vs > >> length wrt to the centre line of the shank. The shank when it starts to > >> travel favours the side that the hammer angle is furthest from the pin. > >> Length X Mass = ft/lbs. > >> Another variable is the quality of quarter saw and straightness of grain > >> within the shank it self. > >> I have a gut feel that is why the Renner Hornbeam shanks are superior to > >> the maple. I may be out to lunch on that one, just guessing. > >> Regards Roger > >> > >> > >> At 08:56 PM 6/3/99 -0700, you wrote: > >> >Roger, > >> > > >> >Yes, yes, yes...now what kind pinning friction do you go for. If > >> >I'm using a swingtest I like 5 to 6. Rick Baldassin is really in > >> >to tighter pinning claiming the same things you are talking > >> >about. Firmer pinning means a more controlled attack on the > >> >string i.e. less wobble. Obviously if one side is looser than > >> >the other you will get wobbly but if both sides are to loose > >> >you'll get wobble. > >> > > >> >David Ilvedson, RPT > >> > > >> >Date sent: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 19:08:26 > >> >To: pianotech@ptg.org > >> >From: Roger Jolly <baldyam@sk.sympatico.ca> > >> >Subject: Re: Why? > >> >Send reply to: pianotech@ptg.org > >> > > >> >> Hi Richard, > >> >> I just knew some one would pick up on that statement, I'm > >> >> smiling. > >> >> If you have had the opportunity to study slow motion films of a > travelling > >> >> hammer you will notice several things, 1. The shank starts to bend > before > >> >> the hammer starts to move. 2. the hammer does not travel straight to the > >> >> string but tends to wobble like a drunken sailor in flight. This > wobble is > >> >> far more pronounced on the angled hammers. > >> >> I have just completed a test on a Yamaha U1 about 20 years old that was > >> >> showing the phasing problem at the bass tenor break. Hammers were well > >> >> traveled and nicely mated to the strings as well as evenly voiced. > Both non > >> >> speaking lengths of the strings were braided to remove this item from > the > >> >> equasion, the strings were seated to the bridges, and the bridge pins > were > >> >> lightly tapped to eliminate false beats. > >> >> Problem was still there, and I had duplicated John Woodrow's problem. I > >> >> then changed the centre pins, Making sure that about same amount of > >> >> friction was on each side of the flange yoke. Yureka!!! the problem > >> >> disappeared. > >> >> I think what is happening, is that with a slightly loose pin the > flight of > >> >> the hammer is much more erratic, causing it to strike one string > before the > >> >> other, therefore giving the phasing effect. > >> >> I change a lot of centre pins in the killer octave region of grands > prior > >> >> to voicing, and can hear the changes in harmonic structure long > before the > >> >> centre pin starts to give the classic audiable click. Down at the > >> >> bass/tenor break there is so much going on sound wise, that I have never > >> >> previously thought to check. > >> >> Another thought for the reason on noticing it more on angled hammers is > >> >> that the weight not evenly distributed down the centre line of the > shank, > >> >> adding to the wobbly flight pattern. > >> >> Hope this sheds some light on your question. > >> >> regards Roger > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> At 11:09 AM 5/9/99 +0200, you wrote: > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> >Roger Jolly wrote: > >> >> > > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Similar instability can be noticed at the bass/tenor break, with the > >> >> >> addition of phasing due to the critical nature of angled hammers. > >> >> >> I'm sure others will add more reasons, but I would think this is the > >> >> >> primary cause. > >> >> >> Regards roger > >> >> > > >> >> >I'd like to hear more about this phasing in relation to angled > hammers.. > >> >> > > >> >> >Richard Brekne > >> >> >Sydneskleiven 1 > >> >> >5010 Bergen, Norway > >> >> > > >> >> >E-mail Richard Brekne > >> >> >Richard Brekne Website > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> At 05:41 PM 5/8/99 -0400, you wrote: > >> >> >> >I am wondering who can provide a definitive answer to the question > >> of why > >> >> >> most > >> >> >> >pianos seem to go out of tune the most at the treble break. I have > >> heard > >> >> >> >several versions of answers, and would like to hear from the best. > >> I am > >> >> >> new to > >> >> >> >the List, and inquiring minds just have to know! Clark Sprague > >> >> Greenwich, > >> >> >> >Ohio > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> Roger Jolly > >> >> >> Balwin Yamaha Piano Centres. > >> >> >> Saskatoon/Regina. > >> >> >> Canada. > >> >> > > >> >> >Attachment Converted: "c:\eudora\attach\ReWhy.htm" > >> >> > > >> >> Roger Jolly > >> >> Balwin Yamaha Piano Centres. > >> >> Saskatoon/Regina. > >> >> Canada. > >> >> > >> > > >> > > >> >David Ilvedson, RPT > >> >Pacifica, CA > >> >ilvey@jps.net > >> > > >> Roger Jolly > >> Balwin Yamaha Piano Centres. > >> Saskatoon/Regina. > >> Canada. > >> > > > > > >David Ilvedson, RPT > >Pacifica, CA > >ilvey@jps.net > > > Roger Jolly > Balwin Yamaha Piano Centres. > Saskatoon/Regina. > Canada. > David Ilvedson, RPT Pacifica, CA ilvey@jps.net
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