Refinishing with Water-Base

[Farrell]

Thanks for your thought-provoking reply Mark. You may well be right on with
the thing about putting only two coats on of 20% thinned Enduro poly per day
being the cause of witness lines - although the Enduro folks were pretty
clear that they did not recommend any more than two coats per day. I dunnno.
Arthur @ Pianolac has no problem with 3 or 4 coats in one day, and says he
never has to thin it. I hope I have better luck with that product. I read
the Target Coatings page on their Premium Spray Lacquer - sounds pretty
interesting. Let me know how it seems to work.

Terry Farrell
Piano Tuning & Service
Tampa, Florida
mfarrel2@tampabay.rr.com

----- Original Message -----
From: <bases-loaded@juno.com>
To: <pianotech@ptg.org>
Sent: Tuesday, February 29, 2000 4:52 PM
Subject: Re: Refinishing with Water-Base


> Terry -
>
> I have refinished quite a few pianos (roughly 10) using Enduro's poly
> with none of the problems that you seem to be experiencing.  I remember
> you were having the orange peel problems when spraying unthinned, and  I
> have not had orange peel problems (bad enough to worry about) spraying
> straight from the can, so I do wonder a bit about your physical set-up.
> Perhaps you are unable to properly atomize the finishes unless thinned to
> a point where there is little build?
>
> Also,  I rub out every finish to semi-gloss, in a very laborious, aerobic
> manner, and have never once sanded or rubbed thru to expose "witness
> lines", and I frequently start with a 400 grit paper to level.  I have
> many times used wool-lube, a water-based rubbing medium, with no adverse
> effects, but I have always waited 10 days or more to do so.  I have also
> used parafin rubbing oils with no adverse effect, sometimes as quickly as
> 5 days after top coating.
>
> I have been using water-based products exclusively for piano cases for
> over 9 years now, and have never rubbed thru to create witness lines, and
> I have used some real crummy finishes from Hydrocote in the "early days"
> when they were changing their formulations every 2 weeks trying to come
> up with something that might work, seeminly using us to tell them if it
> was working or not!
>
> I say all of this because I really can't believe that the finish itself
> is the real root of all of your problems.  I do have to wonder about how
> stout a top coat would be when thinned 20% with a spray additive, which
> is what I believe you ended up doing at the suggestion of Mark Ellis?
> How many coats thinned in this manner did you apply?  I would think it
> would require 3-4 when apllied this thin, and the coats would have to be
> the same day to ensure it ended up being "one film".  Also, it is
> extremely important when using finishes that do not "burn in" to level
> the finish COMPLETELY before applying the one or two topcoats that you
> will rub out.
>
> I wasn't aware that the Pianolac was a 100% burn-in finish.  That is
> certainly one of the biggest advnatages to using nitrocellulose lacquer.
> Shellac also provides this.  Early on Hydrocote had a product called
> Equal that presumably did that, but as it turned out it was not very
> durable (among other problems).  I recently tested a new product from
> Target Coatings called Premium Spray Lacquer, that is water-based and is
> 100% burn-in.  I was very impressed with the way it handled, and I have
> been abusing it with hot liquids and water and household chemicals for
> over 3 weeks with no adverse effects.  It has a built-in crosslinker.  I
> will probably use it for my next ebony job for the top coats.
>
> These comments do not answer any of your questions, I know, but I just
> think that it is possible that the problems are not with the finish
> itself.  At least that has been my experience with Enduro.
>
> Good luck, and let me know how you like Pianolac.  I'll have to give it a
> try someday.  Ah, the quest for the "perfect" water-based finish goes on!
>
> Mark Potter
> bases-loaded@juno.com
>
> On Tue, 29 Feb 2000 04:40:28 -0500 "Farrell" <mfarrel2@tampabay.rr.com>
> writes:
> > Dear List:
> >
> > Recently I posted on some of my problems and successes refinishing a
> > piano
> > with Enduro polyurethane. I have had recent problems while rubbing
> > out the
> > finish (like major!), and will in fact be re-topcoating the piano
> > with
> > Pianolac in the next week or so. The paragraphs below are pasted in
> > here
> > from other communications I have recently had in private posts. But
> > because
> > I expressed some strong positive comments about my experience with
> > Enduro, I
> > am posting this as suggested by Jeannie Grassi, RPT (Assistant
> > Editor, Piano
> > Technicians Journal) mailto:jgrassi@silverlink.net  (I agree - good
> > suggestion). Anyone else have input related to breaching layers of
> > water-base paint during final flattening and rub-out?
> >
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ---
> > ---------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > Sent: February 10, 2000
> > > > Re: Piano Lac vs Enduro
> > > > I am using Enduro Polyurethane on my first piano now. I have had
> > problems
> > > > with orange peel. I spoke to their expert the other day. He
> > recommended
> > > that
> > > > I spray closer & thin up to 20% with Enduro conditioner. I did
> > that. It
> > > > works excellent now. I love everything about it. It sands so
> > easily. The
> > > > finish is rock hard. Their clear grain filler is
> > out-of-this-world.  I
> > > have
> > > > not tried the other.
> > > >
> > > > I highly recommend getting their waterbase polyurethane line
> > rather than
> > > > their less durable waterbase lacquer line (I believe they will
> > recommend
> > > > this also).
> > > >
> > > > And don't forget their Transparent Woodgrain Filler - can't live
> > (or at
> > > > least refinish easily) without it! I've never used anything like
> > it.
> > It's
> > > > too cool for words.  The stuff is sort of like yogurt in
> > consistency. It
> > > > dries absolutely clear. I even put some on an ebony job after
> > one coat
> > of
> > > > black. It dried perfectly clear. You spread it on with a plastic
> > blade.
> > It
> > > > will not dry for at least five minutes, so you can work it in
> > really
> > well
> > > > and you have plenty of time to squeegee off any excess.
> > > > You can mix a tint/stain into it if you wish. Normally, with an
> > ebony
> > > finish
> > > > (like I am just finishing now), you do the grain filler and sand
> > smooth
> > > > (sands super easy), then apply top coats. With a natural finish
> > one
> > would
> > > > normally stain first then apply transparent grain filler.  You
> > have lots
> > > of
> > > > time to work it into the grain and get it real smooth with a
> > blade. I
> > > sanded
> > > > my last filler with 220 grit. It went real quick and did not
> > sand
> > through
> > > > the filler. Good luck.
> > > >
> > > > Enduro products are available from: Compliant Spray Systems;
> > 3011 Vina
> > > Vial;
> > > > San Clemente, CA  92673; (949) 366-2322; (800) 696-0615.
> >
> >
> > > > Sent: February 20, 2000
> > > > Re: Piano Lac vs Enduro
> > > For what it is worth, the item below was my refinishing experience
> > up to,
> > > but not including, polishing out the final finish. I started to
> > hand rub
> > out
> > > the finish the other day by wet sanding with 2,000-grit wet/dry
> > paper.
> > With
> > > only light sanding (not even enough to get the finish totally
> > flat) I went
> > > through a layer(s) of the polyurethane topcoat. When a topcoat
> > layer is
> > > breached, the result is a silvery outline at the layer contact. It
> > will
> > not
> > > sand or buff out. It's appearance is totally unacceptable.
> > >
> > > I am going to sand off most of the topcoat and get it real flat.
> > Then I
> > will
> > > apply either 6 coats of Enduro polyurethane black topcoat in one
> > day, or 6
> > > coats of black PianoLac topcoat, either in one or more days (I
> > need to
> > > consult further with manufacturer). I believe one of these topcoat
> > > application schedules will result in a sufficiently thick topcoat
> > that can
> > > be sanded flat and rubbed to desired finish, and will not exhibit
> > the
> > layer
> > > breaching problem.
> >
> >
> >
> > > > Sent: February 28, 2000
> > > > Re: Piano Lac vs Enduro
> >
> > Hi Jeannie:
> >
> > I would not recommend Enduro now as I did previously. I have an idea
> > it may
> > be great for someone that does not rub out the final finish - but
> > may not be
> > good if one does rub out. I talked today with their expert and he
> > was
> > surprised that I was having the problem of breaching paint layers.
> > The
> > layering problem appears common to most water-base paints. He says
> > that he
> > can sand the final coat flat with 1,000 grit wet paper and not
> > breach a
> > layer - hence no problem. He agreed that it sounded like I was
> > putting on a
> > heavy-enough coat. He could not figure out why I was having the
> > problem. I
> > have tried three separate pieces - test boards, bench lid, and
> > soundboard -
> > sanding with 2,000 grit wet paper - breached layers on all of them.
> >
> > I am ordering Pianolac materials today. I am going to sand the piano
> > down
> > (taking much of the Enduro off) and apply topcoats of Pianolac per
> > manufacturers recommendations. The main claim (that has attracted my
> > attention) Pianolac makes is that sprayed coats bond in such a way
> > that one
> > will not see any layering upon hard sanding of final coat. This is
> > what I
> > want & need. I am ordering today and sanding today and tomorrow. I
> > will
> > likely be spraying in about one week. Flattening and rub-out will
> > follow
> > about one week after that. So, I really will not have a final
> > opinion until
> > two to three weeks from now.
> >
> > In summary, I don't know if Enduro is any more problematic than any
> > other
> > water-base paint at this point. The review/tests that appeared in a
> > recent
> > issue of Fine Woodworking Magazine indicated that it was superior to
> > the
> > other six-or-so water-base paints they tried. I will have a
> > definitive
> > opinion within 3 weeks whether I had better luck with Pianolac! I
> > know I
> > won't have anything before your 8-day deadline. Let me know if you
> > want more
> > info after I have rubbed-out the Pianolac finish. Good luck!
> >
> > Terry Farrell
> > Piano Tuning & Service
> > Tampa, Florida
> > mfarrel2@tampabay.rr.com
> >