No answers from me, just a related observation and another question. I used to do some tuning work for a local shady dealer. The guy could play the piano reasonably well - at least the several songs in his repertoire. Some 90% of the folks that walk in the store do not play the piano. This salesman could make the poorly tuned $900 spinet (read worth $150) sound nearly as good as the new 180 cm grand - certainly the inexperience ears would not hear much difference (which he would do if his analysis told him this was a ....... used spinet customer). Hey, why spend $18,000 when you can get the same thing in a smaller package for $900! My son plays clarinet in his junior high band. I have to agree with: "In a junior high orchestra or band, they may at times be out of tune with each other as much as almost a half-step (100 cents)..." I have often wondered, in-tunewise, how do you get from this to the local professional symphony orchestra? Interesting topic you have brought up. Terry Farrell ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Nereson" <dnereson@dimensional.com> To: <pianotech@ptg.org> Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2001 7:18 AM Subject: in tune, perfection > > << . . . . Are all the violins in a symphony at any time exactly in tune, or > is the fact that there is some difference, which produces a chorus effect, > desireable for producing a complex wave, therby making a bigger overall > effect. > ( 40 piece choir, also ). . . .>> > . . . . >>--Carl Teplitski >> > > No, all the violins, nor all the other instruments in the symphony, are not > exactly in tune with each other at any given time. In a junior high > orchestra or band, they may at times be out of tune with each other as much > as almost a half-step (100 cents), at least when first sight-reading or > learning a piece. One would think that in a professional symphony, they'd > be within, say, 5 or 10 cents, but > > << Pitch during intense and/or wide vibrato > << is on the order of +/- 20 cents. This is analogous to the very rapid > << beating of 3rds & 6ths found in the remote keys of any Cycle of 5ths > <<based temperament. > --Bill Bremmer>> > > as a string player, I can assure you they're never that close, yet the music > still sounds fine, which is why I question some of this hair-splitting over > a few tenths of a cent, or even a cent or two. I maintain that the average > listener just doesn't detect these small differences, especially if the > piano is not playing solo. I'm not advocating bad tuning -- just wondering > how many people even notice that anything sounds "sour" until a unison > (between two instruments) or even an octave, is beating more than about 1 or > 2 beats per second. It depends on various things like whether it's a low, > middle, or high register, if it's during a quiet or a loud passage, what > else is going on in the music, how piercing a tone the particular > out-of-tune instruments have, etc. > During the first opening thirds of Debussy's "Au Clair de Lune", a bad > unison or too-wide third would be audible to discerning listeners, as would > G#3, if it were "out" at the beginning of Beethoven's "Moonlight Sonata", > but in the middle of a crashing concerto with everybody vibrato-ing and > playing fortissimo, and especially if there's also a choir singing, as in > "The Messiah", and they're also all using > vibrato, I'll bet there are regular pitch discrepancies of almost a > quarter-step (25 cents) even in the best symphonies and choirs. But the > overall effect sounds "in tune" because none of those notes last very long, > it's not quiet enough to hear the beats, and the musicians are constantly > adjusting their pitch. It's like looking at a forested mountain from a > distance -- the color appears uniform (green, or maybe a hazy blue or > bluish-grey), but when you're on that mountain, the various trees have many > different shades of green, plus other colors like > the brown of the trunks and branches, the grey of the rocks, etc. > No, I don't leave my octaves and unisons beating, but I have had > customers ask why I keep pounding/tuning a note over and over when it > doesn't sound to them like I'm even changing anything. > I've heard musicians tuning up before a gig, and when they're done > tuning, I can hear that maybe the trumpet is sharp, one of the guitar > strings is still flat, the bass's E string is quite flat -- whatever -- and > they're thinking "close enough for jazz", yet when they play, it sounds > fine, unless they were still grossly out of tune with each other. > Out-of-tuneness probably would be more noticeable in a brass quintet or > string quartet playing slow, quiet music than it would be in a loud jazz or > rock band, or for that matter, a loud symphony with a hundred instruments > and forty voices. > If there's one golden aspen tree in the middle of 50,000 pines, you > won't see it from 5 or 10 miles away and if there's one violin a > quarter-step flat at the end of the 1812 Overture or perhaps during "Rite of > Spring", nobody will hear it except maybe the conductor and the violinist's > stand mate. --David Nereson, RPT, Denver > > > >
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