more on this temperament tangent

[David Love]

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To come up with a theory and look selectively for evidence to support it =
is hardly a scientific or logical way to approach this argument.   There =
are many examples of composers composing in their heads and transferring =
their ideas to paper.  To declare in no uncertain terms that they must =
have been hearing a temperament is almost laughable.  Composers =
certainly chose keys for a variety of reasons, as sure as there are a =
variety of composers.  Some claimed that certain keys had certain =
inherent characteristics, I know people with perfect pitch (non =
pianists), who claim that.  Chopin, on the other hand, often chose keys =
for almost purely pianistic reasons.  Remember that he started his =
students by playing in the key of B because it more naturally fit the =
hand.  Arguments about why people didn't use certain compositional =
elements 300 years ago and to ascribe those reasons to the =
characteristics of meantone temperaments fails to look at the history =
and development of composition and what were considered acceptable =
harmonic structures in general.   So many points have been made in the =
course of this discussion that defy the basics of critical thinking that =
it's hard to even remember them all.  There is a terrific book by a =
Barbara Tuchman called "The March of Folly".  It is a book about how =
governments pursue policies not in their own best interest.  In it she =
ascribes this tendency to something in human nature.  When people commit =
to something and discover that there commitment may not have been well =
founded, rather than reassess the situation, they tend to commit further =
to their folly seeking ways to justify it.  I think that is what we have =
here.  Which is not to say that there isn't merit to different methods =
of tuning.  But to argue that temperament is the foundation of all =
musical composition is, in my opinion, a march of folly.

David Love


I=20
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Billbrpt@AOL.COM=20
  To: pianotech@ptg.org=20
  Sent: November 02, 2001 4:59 AM
  Subject: Re: more on this temperament tangent


  In a message dated 11/2/01 6:31:14 AM Central Standard Time, =
A440A@AOL.COM=20
  writes:=20



    Tom Sivak writes:=20
    <<The thought that composers compose in temperaments is ludicrous. =
>>=20

    (snip)  To this end,  I would like to=20
    hear Tom's evidence that temperament didn't influence composition.   =

    Regards,=20
    Ed Foote=20


  I would too.  Thanks again, Ed, for answering before I had the chance =
and I must say, much better than I could have.  The final movement of =
the 9th symphony is harmonically adventurous for its time and I have =
always thought that perhaps the reason was because Beethoven's mind had =
been freed of conventional constraints due to his deafness.  But it sure =
wasn't an example of Atonal Adventures.  Why not write all kinds of =
bizarre, angular phrases with sharps and flats all over the place and =
end the piece with a grandiose chord in Db instead of D if there was no =
influence of temperament?=20

  In the perspective of music throughout the centuries, it is distinctly =
tonal.  The famous melody is heard all over the world, sung and played =
by children learning music.  The foundation of the piece is very =
elementary and would have NEVER, EVER been written in a remote key =
BECAUSE of the influence of cycle of 5ths temperament construction.  To =
think that temperament had no influence is frankly, illogical.=20

  Let's also consider the Emperor Piano Concerto.  Wasn't he also deaf =
when he wrote that?  Now, why in the world would he have chosen the =
seemingly illogical key of B for the middle movement when the 1st and =
3rd movements are in Eb?  Bb would have been the Dominant key.  He even =
had to use a trick to modulate back to Eb ant the end of the second =
movement.  Why go to this kind of trouble unless there is a reason?=20

  The answer is that in a typical (for the period) WT, mild Meantone or =
Modified Meantone, the key of B with its wide intervals provides for a =
much more melodic and singing tone than would the key of Bb.  Witness =
the broken chords =E0 la Moonlight Sonata that avoid harsh harmony by =
being broken against the soaring single note melody played by the piano. =
 The whole thing would have "fell apart" (as Ed recently put it), it =
would have had a dead, uninteresting sound in Bb.  When played in ET, =
the key of B sounds virtually identical to Bb, just a half step higher =
and not enough more intense to be a reason to modulate.  ET takes away =
some of the singing tone that the melody is supposed to have.=20

  The very fact that someone would think that HT's did not influence =
orchestral or keyboard writing is evidence of how ET has poisoned and =
spoiled contemporary thinking about how music really ought to sound and =
what the reason for choosing any particular key is.  That, I personally =
find ludicrous.=20

  Bill Bremmer RPT=20
  Madison, Wisconsin=20

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