more on this temperament thing

[David Love]

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My training and tendency is to tune pure 2:1 octaves in the last octave. =
 The theory being that the upper note will cause the 2nd partial of the =
lower note to vibrate sympathetically and add to the relative thinness =
of the last octave.  However, I also test the upper octaves by playing =
an arpeggiated and open minor chord in 1st inversion with the top note =
representing the doubled 5th of the chord.  In other words, if you are =
testing C7, play Ab4, F5, C6 and C7.   C7 being the 5th, 3rd and 2nd =
partial respectively of the other three notes. You can hear immediately =
if the C7 is a bit flat.  So in reality, the upper octaves are =
stretched.  Many concert tuners stretch the upper end of the piano a bit =
because the piano should feel like it's "taking off" a bit as you go up =
the scale.  Also, because the decay is so fast I think the perception =
(especially from the back of the hall) is of a flatter pitch.  In the =
more intimate setting of one's living room, I think the perception is =
different and I would personally aim for a more pure 2:1 keeping in mind =
that flat is always more offensive than sharp.  There are clearly =
different styles in this arena and I'm sure you will hear differing =
opinions.

David Love  =20
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Farrell=20
  To: pianotech@ptg.org=20
  Sent: October 21, 2001 2:53 PM
  Subject: Re: more on this temperament thing


  Thanks for your comments David. I follow pretty much exactly what you =
described in your post below when I tune. I usually test some sample =
octaves all across the keyboard to get a feel for what I will be wanting =
to do with the DOB. I have all of Jim Coleman's info and have studied it =
extensively. When I said that I wonder what I should be doing with my =
octaves, I was referring to the upper treble (as in your original post) =
and was indicating that I know very little about upper treble stretch =
theory - why some tuners stretch more than others, why some stretch a =
big piano on a stage more than a small piano in a home. When techs are =
talking about these various amounts of stretch, what are they doing with =
the amount of beating in octaves and double and triple octaves way up in =
the high treble? Are we talking only about putting a half or a quarter =
bpm in some type of octave, or lots of beats or what? Any thoughts would =
be welcome.

  Terry Farrell
   =20
    ----- Original Message -----=20
    From: David Love=20
    To: pianotech@ptg.org=20
    Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2001 2:50 PM
    Subject: Re: more on this temperament thing


    As a general rule I am finding that small pianos require an entry of =
-.5 on the DOB and as the pianos get bigger that number decreases.  But =
you can measure the stretch before you start by tuning a double octave =
(after entering the FAC numbers and saving), and testing aurally to see =
if it is where you want it.  The SAT uses A4 as the fixed point so keep =
that in mind when you choose your test double octave.  I usually try and =
test the double octave to not include any wound strings.  If the double =
octave is too wide, input a negative number on the DOB and change notes =
(step up, step down) to implement the change.  Test again.  When you get =
it where you want it go ahead and start tuning.  When tuning with the =
SAT I start in the tenor and go up (when tuning aurally, I start from =
the temperament and go down).  When I am done with the treble I usually =
direct tune the bass as the machine sometimes has problems across the =
break and I don't always agree with its choices for stretch in the bass. =
 Jim Coleman has made several contributions to the list regarding use of =
the DOB.  I recommend you search the archives and check them out. =20

    David Love=20
      ----- Original Message -----=20
      From: Farrell=20
      To: pianotech@ptg.org=20
      Sent: October 21, 2001 11:11 AM
      Subject: Re: more on this temperament thing


      I would sure like to hear more on this topic. As a tuner still on =
a steep learning curve, I wonder just what I should be doing with my =
octaves, but I find that the SAT III is either right where I wish it to =
be, or sometimes I do find that it seems to have calculated a tuning =
with too much stretch, and I have to enter negative numbers in the DOB =
to slow the beating down - occasionally quite a bit.

      Terry Farrell =20
        ----- Original Message -----=20
        From: David Love=20
        To: pianotech@ptg.org=20
        Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2001 11:25 AM
        Subject: Re: more on this temperament thing


        My experience suggests that C8 at 43+ is not a conservative =
stretch but a fairly healthy one.  To my ear, I usually reduce the =
stretch (on the SATIII via the DOB).   On concert grands I seem to =
prefer it a bit under 40.   On smaller grands and uprights, in the mid =
30's.  Of course the general scaling does make a difference.  But =
generally I find the standard setting on a SATIII over stretches.  I am =
curious what other people find.

        David Love=20
          ----- Original Message -----=20
          From: David M. Porritt=20
          To: pianotech@ptg.org=20
          Sent: October 21, 2001 7:40 AM
          Subject: Re: more on this temperament thing


          Bill:

          You've talked quite a bit of your "tempered octaves" but as =
one who has seen everything from 2:1 octaves to outrageously stretched =
octaves I don't know what kind of stretch you're talking about.  Could =
you give us some numbers so we can know what you mean by tempered =
octaves? =20

          For example, when I tune a Steinway D my C6 is stretched to =
5.06, C7 is 16.11, and C8 is 43.84.  This is what I consider a =
conservative tuning.  What kind of numbers do you get?  On any piano, =
just measure your C6, 7, & 8 and tell us what model piano it is, and how =
it stretches with your tempered octaves.  That would be very =
informative.

          Thanks,

          dave
          *********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********

          On 10/21/01 at 7:19 AM Billbrpt@AOL.COM wrote:
            In a message dated 10/21/01 6:07:55 AM Central Daylight =
Time, davidlovepianos@earthlink.net (David Love) writes:=20



              That being said, if the pianist needs an altered tuning to =
create excitement, he should practice more.


            It's always been my belief, as a piano technician that the =
better prepared the piano, the better equipped the artist is.  Remember =
that I have not advocated *HT* as such for Jazz.  To you, this implies =
*altered* tuning which means something quite noticeably different and =
thus creates an *interference* with what you do rather than provide an =
enhancement.=20

            I don't know if you can or have tried my EBVT but as I have =
designed it (with Tempered Octaves), it is meant to enhance your =
playing, not shock or disturb your musical sensibilities.  It is meant =
to provide definition, texture and clarity, not weird, jarring and =
shocking dissonances.  If the EBVT is still to *altered* for you, I =
believe you might benefit from the Marpurg (also with my Tempered =
Octaves system).  I will give your piano an uncanny clean, crisp and =
clear sound but absolutely will not create any distinction between keys. =


            Bill Bremmer RPT=20
            Madison, Wisconsin
_____________________________
David M. Porritt
dporritt@mail.smu.edu
Meadows School of the Arts
Southern Methodist University
Dallas, TX 75275
_____________________________


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