Charging for Pitch Raises

[Farrell]

My experience has been that the more off pitch the piano, the less tuning stability it will have.

I just gave an estimate for doing some refurbishing on a 1947 Kimball studio (really bizarre - original owner - looks like a nice 20-year-old piano!) and a 175-cent pitch raise and a tuning. I plan on two pitch-raise passes, and one tuning pass. I don't try for the full overpull on the first pitch raise pass because for one, I fear overstretching the string (I've heard it is best to not go more than about 25 cents sharp, or deformation could occur), and second, the final result would be hard to get within two cents of target on that big a pitch raise anyway - so why go for it in one pass. So the first pass I will likely target about 20-cents sharp - I will likely end up with the whole piano about 25 or 30 cents flat. Then I will do a pitch raise with the appropriate overpull and get it real close to target. Then follow up with tuning pass.

I don't understand this "let's raise the piano up 50 cents this time and tune it, then next time we tune we will raise it another 50 cents, etc., etc." The strings will either hold A440 or they won't. Pianos should be at A440 (well, most anyway). Just bring the darn thing up to pitch and tune it.

Older pianos sometimes surprise you. I have had a few old uprights that I have raised pitch 200 cents, and come back a year or two later and they are still right up at pitch - course, may will fall back a bit also.

Also regarding pianos below pitch. Maybe the owner wants to save a bit of money and thinks it would be a good idea to tune it flat. I try to talk them out of it because usually, if the piano is way flat, it is so far out of tune anyway. Like this Kimball I looked at tonight, it was only about 100 cents flat in the bass, but was about 200 cents flat in the upper treble. I would have to do a pitch correction pass on this rascal anyway just to tune it flat - so why not just go up to standard pitch!

And I charge extra for pitch raises. I charge extra for each pitch raise pass. I really like the idea of selling and block of time for a service call of 1.5 or more hours. That is slick. That makes so many things easier. Maybe some day when I have more confidence that my client base will support that, I will try it.

Terry Farrell
  
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mike Kurta" <mkurta@adelphia.net>
To: <pianotech@ptg.org>
Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2002 7:34 PM
Subject: Re: Charging for Pitch Raises


    Bill, there are a lot of variables involved in how stable a piano might be after a pitch raise and fine tuning.  The major one in my mind is how far out was it to begin with.  The worst I've seen was 3 semitones flat.  After tuning one note, the next one up in chromatic sequence (untuned) was in perfect harmony a third below the one I'd just tuned!!  WOW.  I'm sure this piano would be drifting flat within 2 weeks even after a pitch raise and tune.  That brings up another point.  How many technicians raise pitch in increments in this case?  I find no reason not to yank each string over pitch by 1/3 of the flatness no matter how flat it is.  String breakage does not seem to be a problem, and 40-50 cents over is not unusual.  However in talking to those in our Syracuse chapter leaving the piano below pitch, or raising in 10-20 cent steps until the proper pitch is reached it most common.  Any comments?     Mike Kurta  PNO2NER
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: William R. Monroe 
  To: pianotech@ptg.org 
  Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2002 3:16 PM
  Subject: Re: Charging for Pitch Raises


  Mike and List,

  If one properly pitch raises an instrument, and finishes with a solid fine tuning, is there validity saying that the instrument will not hold this tuning as well as if it were tuned regularly?  I was under the impression that in this scenario, the instrument would hold tune well, perhaps only slightly less well than a regularly serviced instrument on which PR are not needed or performed.

    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: Mike Kurta 
    To: pianotech@ptg.org 
    Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2002 5:59 AM
    Subject: Re: Charging for Pitch Raises


        I never charge for a pitch raise, however I don't discount if one isn't needed either.  I used to charge for mileage too,  but don't any more.  One price for all is my rule now.  I might be a bit higher than the norm for this area, but I find it all averages out in the end.  I like consistency.  If a pitch raise is needed, I explain to the customer what I'm doing, and that the finished tuning will be up to pitch and sound great, but it won't stay in tune quite as long this first time.  (Assuming its been 3-5 years since the last tuning, which is often the case).  I then encourage them to begin an annual tuning schedule which after 2-3 years will bring their piano back to a stable situation.  I prefer using this method rather than either (1) raising the pitch in increments, thus leaving the piano at less than A440, or (2) recommending another tuning be done in 1-3 months, and again raising pitch in steps.  Not every owner follows this recommendation, but I hesitate to appear as though I'm pushing more tunings as well as leaving the piano out of tune.  If I do return in a year, usually follow-up pitch raises are not necessary, and I feel the slight additional charge for all tunings covers the occasional pitch raises that are needed.    Mike Kurta
      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: Dave Nereson 
      To: pianotech@ptg.org 
      Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2002 6:45 AM
      Subject: Re: Charging for Pitch Raises



        ----- Original Message ----- 
        From: William R. Monroe 
        To: Pianotech 
        Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2002 6:26 PM
        Subject: Charging for Pitch Raises


        I was reading an old essay (PTJ August '90) by Rick Baldassin regarding Piano Tuning Stability.  Within that article, Rick writes about tuning for a concert and remarks that after a rehearsal, the treble was really out.  'Why?  The treble notes were too far out of tune to create a stable tuning in one pass on the tuning.'  He stated that when he tuned the instrument prior to the rehearsal, the 6th and 7th octaves were flat, 'maybe as much as four cents.'

        So, in a nutshell, if your piano is four cents flat, your tuning will not be stable (for a concert level tuning).  

        My questions:
         1.) Really?  Is four cents flat too much to get a stable concert tuning?

        2.) For our regular clients, when do we begin charging for a pitch raise, 5 cents, 10 cents, 20 cents?  I realize that neither all clients, nor their instruments will require this level tuning, but where do we draw the line and say we must raise pitch to get a stable tuning?

        I am very interested to hear as many opinions on this one as possible.

        Thank you,

        William R. Monroe
        PTG Associate
        Salt Lake City, UT

            Yes, 4 cents flat is probably too flat to get a stable concert tuning in one pass.  Back when people referred to beats per second (at A 49) more often than cents, someone at a seminar said that anything more than 2 beats per second flat would require a pitch raise to be stable in one pass.  I find (in the home, not concert tunings) that that's about right most of the time.  
            For clients, whether regular or not, I suppose you should charge extra for any tuning that requires more passes to stabilize than one on a piano that's already at pitch.  I don't think I've ever done a "one-pass tuning".  It's always once through to do the initial tuning, then another time through to re-tune the ones that slipped, then I take out the ear plugs and go through again for a final touch-up.  The second two "passes" are very quick and are considered part of the tuning.   
            If I had even a nickel for every free pitch raise I've done, I could probably buy a new couch or something.  Sometimes I just don't want to go drag the customer away from what they're doing to tell them there's going to be an extra charge.  Sometimes I charge and sometimes I don't -- I know, that's inconsistent, but since the pitch raise takes only 10 or 15 minutes, I usually just quickly bang it out rather than go get them to give 'em the lecture about tension, humidity, dryness, string stretching, tuning every 6 months, etc.  Even if I do, it doesn't do any good.  They still wait 2 to10 years before they get it tuned again, even if I leave literature about it.  I've almost given up on explaining about and charging for pitch raises.  Almost all pianos I tune need one, except those that get tuned every year (schools, piano teachers), and even some of those need a "quickie raise or lower" in the middle, depending what season it was when they were last tuned.  
              I dunno, for me it's easier to have the charge for a pitch raise figured in to the "regular" base fee, and if it doesn't need a p.r., give them a $10 or $15 discount.      --David Nereson, RPT, Denver