---------------------- multipart/alternative attachment At 11:51 AM 4/26/2002 -0700, you wrote: >Susan: When called for bad intonation, a certain type of string student >would start furiously tuning the open strings. My teacher would say, >"That's only four notes ..." >I think you are missing the point . . . it is a valid anecdote though. Bradley, we are suffering from malocclusion of argument. You had just talked about a study which apparently said that string players determined interval size (and therefore intonation) not by melodic contours or other musical qualities, but instead solely in order to acquire resonance from open strings. This seems so strange to me that I feel your explanation of the studies you cite must be lacking. I asked what happened when these string players played in B major (where, on the cello, not a single open string is part of the key) and I added this anecdote showing that string players should, and can, be able to play more in tune than the open strings if they are slightly off. That is, they are not chained to the open strings, but rather can adjust pitch to match other players, other instruments, piano accompaniments, etc. So, what do you do when you put on a new string, and it pulls flat? Aside from stopping at every opportunity to tune it up, of course. Do you just play flatter on the other strings, because the new string has better resonance that way? (I know, this is silly ... but then, this whole discussion is silly.) Well, it sounds like to me you should have continued to listen to your open strings. How do you know you are in-tune if you never listen to your other strings (I do not mean physically play them)? I ask again -- how do you "listen to your other strings" when you are playing in a key which doesn't include them? Do you then feel that you play better in tune in keys which include open strings, and worse in more distant keys? Maybe we should stop playing the Brahms B major trio, because we can't check with our open strings? You are confusing interval size and strings' natural variation in key color. Sorry, I think you are doing this. I was talking interval size, and you brought up the color of the open strings. For me, interval size should be the same in all keys. You were saying that interval size should be determined by the resonance of open strings. Here: I'll quote you: >Susan, string players do not melodically temper intervallic movement. You >may feel that way for a completely different reason than you think. >Sufficient psychoacoustical research has been conducted to show that >musicians do not have sufficient ability to melodically place a succession >of notes. String players generally place notes based on open-string >sympathetic vibration: intervals are tempered in such a way to make the >other three strings sympathetically vibrate. This makes the instrument >"ring" and have an "open" sound. I'm sure that at some point in your cello >career someone told you to "check it with the open string?" This seems to be saying that string players are incapable of placing notes or making accurate intervals in distant keys. Did you really mean to say this? Maybe we should just eliminate everything with more than three sharps or flats? Okay, let's tackle this head-on, before putting it to rest. I feel that when several people play together, they try to adjust to each other, which is easier if their personal sense of interval size is fairly close, and harder if some have "barber shop ears" or just can't control intonation very well, or have a fondness for sharping just slightly, because it enhances their sound. It is easiest, of course, when one of the instruments is a piano, which gives a much less capricious basis than instruments which are infinitely adjustable for pitch, like strings, voice, trombone, etc. When one person plays solo, it is more like a cantor or an unaccompanied choir. It is harder to keep an even keel, but one's tonal memory (the poor relative of absolute pitch) will help to keep one in pitch. Physical memory of position helps put some limits on how far one can stray, but nowhere nearly good enough ones to play really in tune. I still don't think that one could do something like play a G and say to oneself, "is the D string resonating well with that?" (no? well, maybe I should try going sharp -- now is it good? no? I guess I should have gone flat ... AH, that's just right) As you can see, I'm not understanding your position clearly at all. Bolstering it with your degrees and the famous groups you have studied with is not helping. We should probably call it a day. But first, I must mention one thing which has happened a number of times from several people in this thread: they talk about "just intervals" and seem to make no distinction between just octaves, fourths, fifths, -- versus thirds and sixths. (Just what they would call a just second or seventh, I can't guess ...) For me, octaves, fourths, and fifths (and their relatives in other octaves) should be as just as we can get them. But not thirds or sixths. They just don't work harmonically or melodically that way. A "good" string major second is slightly larger than a tempered one, and a "good" string minor second is slightly smaller, or maybe a lot smaller if it is an important leading tone. If you add these "good" intervals, you just don't get beatless thirds or sixths. The major thirds are far too close to the size of minor thirds if both are beatless, and I hear these as terribly unmusical. They add a rootless and ambiguous feeling to the playing, and they take away the strength of harmonic progressions. If you love them and think that the whole string-playing world backs your position -- carry on. We are not going to agree, so why bother trying to? If we sat down together with instruments, we could probably clarify a lot, but we are unlikely to. Sincerely, Susan Kline ---------------------- multipart/alternative attachment An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: https://www.moypiano.com/ptg/pianotech.php/attachments/01/f4/91/c4/attachment.htm ---------------------- multipart/alternative attachment--
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