May the 4ths be with you

[Richard Moody]

> If you want a real treat, get Ed for his two period class on
HT's.  One of
> the best classes I've seen.
> One thing for sure, that all agreed upon, HT's have a lot of
beautiful key
> colour changes.
>
> Now that will cost you 2 beers.
>
> Regards Roger.

Yeah, but you owe me a voicing needle.... ; )

Yes I attended Ed's class in Reno.  And had the privilege of
sitting beside one of the best of tuners.  I would like to see his
comments posted but he is more circumspect than I.  I guess that
comes from maturity.
      I tried as hard as I could but couldn't hear the "color" or
if I did it sounded like a tuning issue.  ET brainwashed? What
difference? Its kind of like looking for a satellite on a starry
night.  Pretty soon they are all moving.   I am not saying because
I can't hear it nobody else can either.   It might be something
like "tone deaf".   I am not "tone deaf" but I might be "color
deaf".   If so perhaps you or other color enthusiasts can help me
out.
Listen to 4 different recordings and tell me which has color and
which doesn't.   We can go one further... listen to 4 recordings
of the same piece.
Or you supply 4 and I supply 4.   We listen to them blindfolded.
You tell me which have color.   Or we throw 8 into a pile and
blindfolded pick out 4.  Then listen and then tell which is ET and
which has "color".   If you can do this two out of 3 times I will
buy the house two rounds.
    I wonder if someone can offer mp3 samples (legally of course)
as tests?   ---ric



----- Original Message -----
From: Baldwin Yamaha Piano Centre <baldwin@mta-01.sk.sympatico.ca>
To: <pianotech@ptg.org>
Sent: Saturday, August 24, 2002 5:46 PM
Subject: Re: May the 4ths be with you


> Hi Ric,
>              I am starting to come to the conclusion that there
is very
> little key colour in ET. The historical reference's to key
colour was given
> in an era where and when clean ET was not available, in
practice.  The side
> by side comparisons that I have done at the university, and with
teacher
> groups seems to support this.
> Having said this, it's amazing how a good musician will change
their
> technique to translate the composers intent in musical terms.
This I think
> gives an illusion of key colour change.
> How much does frequency have to do with the perception of colour
change?  I
> don't know.
> Ed Foote was our feature clinician at this years, CAPT national
convention,
> and did a fantastic job, with the aid of a good pianist in
bringing this
> topic to the fore.  I think there was as many opinions as there
were
> attendee's.  Ed, if you are reading, I know 2 different techs
that are
> experimenting with HT's since your lecture.  Great Job.
> If you want a real treat, get Ed for his two period class on
HT's.  One of
> the best classes I've seen.
> One thing for sure, that all agreed upon, HT's have a lot of
beautiful key
> colour changes.
>
> Now that will cost you 2 beers.
>
> Regards Roger.
>
>
>
> At 09:20 PM 8/24/02 +0200, you wrote:
> >Richard Moody wrote:
> >
> > > > If you tune this same range such that the 6:3 are held
beatless,
> > > > or at 0.5bps as they start out in the example above, then
you'd
> > > hold
> > > > the 8:4 up a while longer... this would allow for better
matching
> > > of
> > > > those triple octaves and would represent quite a stretch.
Though
> > > the
> > > > 4:2's and 2:1's  would probably beat obnoxiously.
> > >
> > > Maybe try a different machine, I don't know what to
say----with
> > > beats like that it seems there is a lot of room for
improvement.
> >
> >Ric, this wasnt a machine tuning. It was simply calculated
frequencies
> >using the inharmonicity equation with measured (and published)
> >inharmonicity constants for a A3, A4, A5, A6. The numbers are
what
> >they are. Unless there is something wrong with the
inharmonicity
> >formula, I dont see how they can come out any different. Seems
pretty
> >usuall to me tho... Tuning A3 / A4 as pure 2:1 octave types is
going
> >to result in some movement up the ladders, especially when you
try and
> >match A5's partial ladder to that.
> >
> >The two graphs tho were from a tuning done by Dr. Sanderson for
an
> >article he wrote way back when. Grin.. he termed the tuning a
"well
> >tuned piano".
> >
> > >
> > > >. We do manage to create a tuning
> > > > that is ET in more ways then not, and the fact that we
kill all
> > > key color is good evidence of that.
> > >
> > > Speak for yourself on "we kill all key color".  I believe
that is
> > > the most specious sentiment in the history of music
especially
> > > when applied to temperament.  It is a musician's thing, if
they want
> > > to
> > > talk to piano tuners about it I am all ears, but ain't
holding my
> > > breath.
> >
> >Well, I will be the first to enjoy discussion about key colour
in ET.
> >But that being said the kind of key color found in HT is taken
out of
> >the equation in a well executed ET. I mean thats kind of the
whole
> >point of ET.. isnt it ??? For example... all major 3rds at 13.7
cents
> >apart (I think thats the right number ... Ed ?? )
> >
> >I certainly like very much of the rest of your discussion on
key
> >colour Ric, and I have enjoyed your thoughts on the matter
every time
> >they come up. but I think personally we have to admit that
there is at
> >least a major type of key colour found in HT's that is not in
ET. But
> >perhaps I am wrong in this. In any case It would be interesting
to see
> >how well tuners and musicians alike could identify these
effects AFTER
> >having a good deal of ear training to reaquaint our ears to
these
> >things.
> >
> >I am personally not so swayed by aural comparison tests we hear
talk
> >about today as to what conclusions we can draw from them....
that is
> >other then to conclude that the musical ear today is almost
frightenly
> >ignorant of our rich and colorfull temperament past. I have
conducted
> >a few such experiments myself and I find that those who know
what they
> >are listening for (of which there seem to be sparse few of)
know right
> >off what they are hearing.... and those that dont remind me
much of
> >that first day of tuning school where that "old guy" was trying
to get
> >me to hear the beats.
> >
> >Many thanks for your interesting thoughts.
> >
> >Cheers !
> >
> >--
> >Richard Brekne
> >RPT, N.P.T.F.
> >UiB, Bergen, Norway
> >mailto:rbrekne@broadpark.no
> >http://home.broadpark.no/~rbrekne/ricmain.html
>
> Roger
>
>