After reading this 12-kbyte conversation, I have to ask Ric; in saying no one can tell the difference between a WT and ET, how do you mean that? Do you mean a technician can't tell by playing a few chords on the piano, or can't tell by listening to someone else play something fast? If someone is just playing a fast scherzo with no sustained chords, it is difficult to tell an immediate difference, but if there are any sustained chords it becomes obvious. A C-major triad in a Young is quite different from ET and obvious if it is sustained any time at all. When I listened to the 2nd movement of the Pathetique on Ed's Temperament CD it was so obvious I couldn't continue listening. As an ET lover personally, I've not listened to the entire movement. That's because my ear/brain have been forever altered by 63 years of listening to ET. I'll promote WTs anywhere I can for those commercial reasons Ed has mentioned. While I, personally, still prefer ET on my piano, I will gladly tune any of the 77 non-ET tunings I have on my hard drive for a customer. And I can certainly tell the difference. dave *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** On 12/22/2002 at 1:57 AM Richard Moody wrote: >----- Original Message ----- >From: <A440A@aol.com> >To: <pianotech@ptg.org> >Sent: Saturday, December 21, 2002 8:30 AM >Subject: Re: [ctuner] Brahms & Well Temperamen > >...............................Ed Foote >> Whereas ET is much like the architect's >> drawing, WT is more akin to the painter's output. Mr. Good >prefers the >> latter. > >...............................the Moody tuner, (Dick "Richard" >Moody) ........... >> >? Don't tell that to Mr Good's tuner who tunes exactly every >time. > >........................Ed Foote >> I didn't know that. was that part of the article? If so, I >missed the >> "exact" stipulation. > >..............................R Moody.................. >It is my conclusion that Mr Good's tuner used a machine. I am >wondering if it is true. If so then then the tuning should be >exact every time. > >......................Moody wrote....................... >> > The arguments that temperament influenced music as far as >> >history is concerned is coming to a rapid close. After each >> >tuning scheme is finally translated, it is seen by tuners, >> >musicians, musicologists, and music historians, that >temperament >> >doesn't really matter unless it produces wolves. > >..............................Foote >replies............................> >> Many tuners would diagree. I have customers to whom it >matters a >great deal. > >....................................ric Moody >asks............................. >Are you saying your customers must have wolves in their >temperaments? > >............................Ed Foote continues............ (picked >out by rm) > >If you offered to tune their pianos in ET, for free, they >wouldn't let >> you do it, but will pay top dollar for a Broadwood's style of >tuning. > >.........................R Moody replies.............. >Yeah, and I had clients that would have fired me if I changed the >way I tuned for them which was ET. ET has its place, historic >temperaments has its place, "dial a tuning" also has its place. > >.......................from E Foote >>There are finer harmonic nuances than wolves. > >.........................Dick replies.................. >We better define wolves, or agree that the direction of >temperament is to produce less and less wolves. > >My point of view is that there were two directions in the >development of temperament. In the beginning it seems for some >reason that pure 3rds were desired and tuners used the theory of >the syntonic comma to establish a bearing of pure thirds. They >flattened each 5th by a quarter of that comma to get pure 3rds. >This is referred to today as Meantone which resulted in three >wolf 3rds and one very prounounced wolf 5th. It made some key >signatures very nice, but others not so nice to play in. It is my >belief that organ tuners thought pipe organs sounded better with >these flat 5ths but pure 3rds, and stringed keyboard instrument >tuners followed the directions of organ tuners. It is important to >note the tuners of stringed keyboard instruments were the >musicians themselves. > Along came musicians who wanted to play in all the keys on the >keyboard. They reasoned that if all the 5ths are flat, perhaps >some of those 5ths could be tuned pure and thus eliminate the wolf >5th at least. Thus the so called "wells" came about. It is >very difficult to flatten each 5th the same amount, and they >reasoned that if six or five 5ths were tune pure it would make >tuning much easier in addition to eliminating wolves. > As long at was realized that a series of flattened 5ths would >produce pure 3rds, it must have been realized that a series of >less flattened 5ths would make the circle of 5ths come out. This >is of course ET. How long ET has been attempted is still a >process of discovery, as more and more old and ancient tuning >instructions are being translated. > >......................Ed Foote >said................................. >>We start seeing F# used more and more as the >> temperament equalized over the late 1800's, and modern ET era >(1900 >on) music >> is all over the map, showing no preference for any key. Doesn't >this at >> least hint at something going on between temperament and >composition? > >.........................rm replies >.................................. >Yes, composers are enjoying the freedom of ET. > >....................ric also wrote..................in a previous >post.................. >> >When the so called Wells are put up against ET no one can tell >the >> difference. >> >.......................................Ed >replies....................................... > >> Ric, I gotta disagree here. In comparisons between the two >in many >PTG venues, non-Et was distinctly preferred over a >state-of-the-art ET. >In my classes, after 90 minutes of >listening to a WT, the previously >accepted ET sounds VERY >different, (and "shallow" according to more >than a few remarks). >> In my lab at Vanderbilt, no one is left unstruck by the >difference between >an ET and a Broadwood tuning! > > >........................ric >moody....replies............................................ > >OK but play two recordings and ask the listeners to pick out >which is ET and which is not. Actually for fair scientific >analysis play 10 recordings of something other than ET and 10 >recordings of ET and see how many listeners to pick out ET from >non ET. The only quibble might be is if the choice of "can't >tell the difference" appears on the quiz. Its like asking piano >technicians to listen to recordings and tell which is the SD 10 >from the SnS D. It can't be done. > We know a client may extol a tuning, I have had one or two do >so, and it has been ET. I am sure I could tune a Montal ET and >get the same praise... from you even. !! in a blind test!!!. (yes >this is a challange) I would like to say the same for any of the >historical tunings such as from Werkmeister, or Kirnberger or >Marpurg but the aural instuctions have not been translated into >English. > > > >> >...................................> Ric again >rote............................. >> >Now we hear that Edwin Good says he can. So if he can >demonstrate >> >he can tell the difference between an ET and the Well he >prefers, >> >I will gladly learn to tune the well he prefers because all >> >musicians would want to hear a "rich lively tone" in their >freshly >> >tuned pianos. >> >> Great! Now you are getting the idea. Edwin Good is >already >> demonstrating this, with his wallet! And so are many other >customers, >they wouldn't dream of letting an ET-only tuner tune >their piano because they do not want an ET! > >...............ric of course is skeptical and says...... > > If Edwin Good can pick out a non ET tuning from ET in a blind >listening I will believe you. Until then it is only puff the magic >dragon. > > > >...............................Ed writes >>My point is that a tech may be able to earn more money if they >can tune in a variety of ways and understand the implications >well enough to create a market for themselves. I have seen this >happen in two areas already, the WT tuner is gradually acquiring >more and more of the discriminating customers. An >analogy would be that we can sell more fruit if we have apples and >oranges >> and bananas than if we only have apples. > >.......................ric >replies...............puff........................... > >................Ed....from the last post...................... > >> I wrote: >> >> Simply switching temperaments doesn't automatically >"color" >> > the music to its optimum. >> >> Ric answers: >> >Ah the myth of "color" caused by temperament. Hmmm looks >like >> > you are now saying it (temperament) doesn't color >> >music............. > >> That is not what I said at all. Lemme try again: I said >SWITCHING >> temperaments doesn't automatically color music to its OPTIMUM ! >.Temperaments color music, switching them may or may not make an >improvement for a particular piece or composer, or era. > >..................ric replies............... > Ok so you say "Temperaments color music" but SWITCHING >temperaments doesn't automatically color music to its OPTIMUM! >Well then, what temperament does color music to its optimum?. Can >you explain to musicians and musiciolgoist and music historians >how "Temperaments color music"? Is it pure 5ths, and wider 3rds? >Is it narrow 5ths and purer 3rds. Where is there color and where >is there not color? If ET is not color, what is color? Can you >tell us how to tune to get back the color that is not in ET? >..................PUFF I say....................... > >.....................ric rote............................. >>What is the big deal between the "typical Victorian tunings" >(which was >never practiced, as research is revealing) vs a sloppy ET > >...........Ed asks....... >> What research is revealing a lack of practise? Do you have >>something more plausible than Jorgensen's interpretation of >Ellis's >documentation? if so, I would like to read it. > >..............ric the student of history replies. >Ellis's documentations are written in English by himself. They >are in the Dover editon of Herman Helmnoltz, "Sensation of Tone" > And yes there is a mistake of reference by Jorgensen that he >gave in the Journal article. > > > >...............Ed wrote.................................. >>Even the 1885 tunings vary ET in >> the same general form,which is the form of all the earlier WT's. >This isn't >> the result of coincidental error. > >..........................ric asks.................. > >what form is this? and what is coincidential >error?................ > >> > The modern machines with theoretical offsets will >> > give a consistent temperament, but compare that with results >from >> > the original directions that guided the ear. >> >> I have, and was surprised how close the aural WT's are to >the mechanical >> offsets from ET on good piano scales. In fact, if you really >work at a >> Kirnberger or Young, you can become quite consistant. I can >only imagine >> the really good tuners of 1840 were able to achieve consistant >results. > >.....................ric asks............................ > >the whole enquiry is to find out which temperament the "really >good tuners of 1840" used to acheive "consistant results". Was it >the Kirnberger or the Young? Or did they know both? and were >consistant in two? What are the the original directions? >> >> Ric again: >> >I think you will >> > find, the aural tunings will give much more musical pleasure, >> > especially the ET of Claude Montal of 1836. >> >> Nope, not enough color... >> >> Ed Foote RPT > > >Ed, I would like to ask how you can say , "Nope, not enough >color..." and ask if you have tuned according to Montal's >instructions and if so how does the music sound. Say of Chopin >Preludes or Waltz...?? >I have tuned according to Montal's instructions and I invite you >to play any Chopin or Beethoven or any music you prefer on my >Montal or anyone's Montal. I have tuned according to Montal's >directions and and I am amzed at the ET that comes out. > >Richard Moody > > > >_______________________________________________ >pianotech list info: https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives _____________________________ David M. Porritt dporritt@mail.smu.edu Meadows School of the Arts Southern Methodist University Dallas, TX 75275 _____________________________
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