1912. Yes. Ribs don't really have any crown. I yanked apart an 1893 Knabe upright and was amazed at the crown on the ribs! Major, major crown. The Baldwin M I am going to install a new soundboard in - I removed the old soundboard because it had a bad killer octave area - now that board is out, it has big-time reverse crown. My understanding is that all(?) Steinways start out with flat ribs - no crown machined into them. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Greg Newell" <gnewell@ameritech.net> To: "Pianotech" <pianotech@ptg.org> Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2003 11:11 PM Subject: Re: Killer Octave Question > Terry, > How old a Mason is it? Is this the upright you've been working on? > Can you ascertain whether the ribs were crowned or not? Can anyone give > information as to what companies may have used rib crowned panels, when and > for how long? > > Greg Newell > > > > At 11:00 PM 4/12/2003, you wrote: > > >FWIW: I just cut a long bridge out of an old Mason & Hamlin and it is as > >flat as a pancake. Not a speck of crown to be found. > > > >Terry Farrell > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "Greg Newell" <gnewell@ameritech.net> > >To: "Pianotech" <pianotech@ptg.org> > >Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2003 8:00 PM > >Subject: Re: Killer Octave Question > > > > > > > John, > > > Since, I think, that we are all interested in a piano being the > > > best it can be whether that involves re-engineering or copying the > > original > > > design can we agree that this is not intended to be any kind of a "pissing > > > match" as you put it? With regard to your points below I'd like to ask > > > your views on some of the items with a little more specificity. > > > > > > 1) How can you be sure that the original bridges were machined with some > > > sort of crown and didn't simply take on some kind of compressions set? > > > > > > 2) You say it adds in supporting crown in both directions but if you were > > > to take a bridge blank (uncrowned) and lay it across an installed and > > > crowned soundboard (whether rib crowned or compression crowned) could you > > > not easily press down on both ends of the blank and have it meet the > > board? > > > If it is this easy to do how can it aid in the supporting of crown? I'm > > not > > > pissing, I really want to know. > > > > > > 3) OK but this could be from compression set as easily as from the > > > intentional crowning of the bridge, no? > > > > > > 4) It seems to me that this knowledge is what were after here. > > > > > > 5) Well, again, that's what we're trying to find out. If it can be > > > quantified, at least in some small way, it could be ascertained if the > > > exercise is worth the effort, if in fact that was an intended original or > > > beneficial design. > > > > > > 6) I agree that it wouldn't be that hard to do but, again, is it really > > > desired? > > > > > > 7) Well, yeah, I guess that would be correct. No harm to the piano but i > > > can think of better things to do if it provides no real benefit. > > > > > > > > > I hope neither of you minds me jumping in on this. I'd truly like to > > > understand what the best approach here is. If I'm wrong I'd sure like to > > > know so that my next board and every one beyond that will get better and > > > better each time. > > > > > > > > > regards, > > > > > > Greg Newell > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > At 07:40 PM 4/12/2003, you wrote: > > > > > > >Well Ron, > > > > > > > >Are you trying to drown me with questions? I haven't yet finished > > > >responding to your last flock and now you have a few more. I'll tell you > > > >what, lets not get into a pissing match on this. From reading your posts > > > >in the archives I know our points of view are different and I have no > > > >chance of convincing you of anything. I am not interested in persuading > > > >you or getting drawn into long debate. > > > > > > > >This all started when I tried to answer a question. I think I made my > > > >point and was of some help. I will continue to try and help those with > > > >less experience than I by offering input. I also look forward to hearing > > > >from more experienced technicians who may answer my questions. I think > > > >there are others on this list that may be interested in discussing piano > > > >rebuilding issues from a point of view other than piano > > > >re-engineering. Someone with your level of experience may not need this > > > >but I know this is what I am interested in. In the years I have been > > > >rebuilding pianos there are only a few instances when a re-engineering > > > >approach was practical, beneficial or profitable. Most all of the > > > >knowledge that has been useful to me comes from studying how these pianos > > > >worked and sounded. For the most part replicating their design and > > > >implementing many of the original techniques leads directly to better > > > >results and improved efficiency. I know through the phone calls I get and > > > >questions at chapter meetings I attend that there are many technicians > > > >just starting out or at an intermediate level that are interested in > > these > > > >basics of piano re-building. > > > > > > > >As far as crowned bridges are concerned these are the facts as I see them. > > > > > > > >1) Some Pianos were made with crowned bridges. Steinway and Mason & > > > >Hamlin for sure. > > > > > > > >2) A crowned bridge works with the ribs to form the belly (soundboard > > > >crown in both directions). > > > > > > > >3) The highest point of the curve was under the low treble. > > > > > > > >4) We don't know how or why or if this works to help the tone. > > > > > > > >5) It's obvious that a crowned bridge could add strength to the > > soundboard > > > >but not sure how much. > > > > > > > >6) It is easy and fast to do if you know how to use basic woodworking > > tools. > > > > > > > >7) There is no evidence that it harms the piano in any way. > > > > > > > >This is all I have to say about it at this time. In the future could you, > > > >Ron, please ask only one or two questions at a time? > > > > > > > >John Hartman RPT > > > > > > > >John Hartman Pianos [link redacted at request of site owner - Jul 25, 2015] > > > >Rebuilding Steinway and Mason & Hamlin > > > >Grand Pianos Since 1979 > > > > > > > >Piano Technicians Journal > > > >Journal Illustrator/Contributing Editor > > > > > > > > > > > >Ron Nossaman wrote: > > > >> > > > >>>Phew Ron, > > > >>> > > > >>>Are you sure you what me to answer all of these questions? > > > >> > > > >>Yup, I'm sure. > > > >> > > > >>> >> I have worked on many brands of grand pianos and have observed that > > > >>> >> some pianos seem not to have this feature but the two brands that > > > >>> >> consistently show evidence of bridge crowning are Steinway and Mason > > > >>> >> and Hamlin. > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > John, > > > >>> > How then does this correlate with the number of new Steinways we see > > > >>> > (often enough on the showroom floor) with concave crown in the killer > > > >>> > octave? It seems to me that if a crowned bridge is supporting > > soundboard > > > >>> > crown and making it last longer, there ought to be soundboard > > crown to > > > >>> > show for it. Especially in a new piano. > > > >>> > > > >>>Since my rebuilding process involves soundboard replacement I usualy > > > >>>work on pianos that are over the hill - say 40 years old or more. > > > >> > > > >>I don't think any of us make a living replacing soundboards in new > > > >>pianos, so I would assume that as a given. > > > >> > > > >>>As far as how new pianos are fairing; all I can think is that we are > > > >>>simply not living at a time in history that is conducive to building > > > >>>fine pianos. We no longer have the cheap skilled work force or the > > > >>>economic momentum (competition for a growing marker) that was the > > > >>>fertile environment that nurtured these fine instruments. > > > >>>Furthermore, and most telling is how far we are removed from the > > > >>>aesthetic soil that gave rise to a true renaissance in piano building. > > > >>>The public's ears are no longer attuned to the subtleties of tone and > > > >>>fewer and fewer of them would know the difference between the frogs > > seen > > > >>>in hotel lobbies or the finely prepared pianos of Carnegie Hall. Now > > > >>>days we are lucky if a few pop out the factory door without fatal flaws. > > > >> > > > >>We're talking about crowned bridges here, and these bridges are being > > > >>made by the same methods, and on the same machinery, and from close > > > >>enough to the same material as they were forty - or eighty years ago. If > > > >>they supported crown then, they ought to support crown now. At least > > long > > > >>enough to make it out of the showroom. So again, why do so many new > > > >>Steinways with these crowned bridges have concave crown in the killer > > > >>octaves? This is simple straightforward mechanics not having a lot to do > > > >>with the cost of labor or the golden age of anything. You said that > > > >>crowned bridges support soundboard crown and make it last longer. If > > > >>that's the case, why don't we see it in the pianos? > > > >> > > > >>>Fortunately the news is not all black for us technicians in this era of > > > >>>shrinking interest in the piano. There are still a few great oaks > > > >>>standing in the old growth forest. They with there followers are still > > > >>>interested in the piano and the music written for it. I can't think of > > > >>>any of them that I have met that would not want their piano to sound > > and > > > >>>play as well as those built at the height of the golden era of piano > > > >>>building. It is their hope as - I hear it - that playing these pianos > > > >>>will give them greater insight into the music they love to play. I > > think > > > >>>that studying these instruments is vital to us technicians - and not > > > >>>just studying how they don't work but how they do work. > > > >>> > > > >>>John Hartman RPT > > > >> > > > >>How they work, and what does and doesn't make them work is exactly what > > > >>I'm addressing here. > > > >>Ron N > > > >>_______________________________________________ > > > >>pianotech list info: https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives > > > > > > > > > > > >-- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > > > >pianotech list info: https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives > > > > > > > > > > Greg Newell > > > mailto:gnewell@ameritech.net > > > > > > > > >-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > pianotech list info: https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives > > > > >_______________________________________________ > >pianotech list info: https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives > > Greg Newell > mailto:gnewell@ameritech.net > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > _______________________________________________ > pianotech list info: https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives >
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