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Terry,
Only one comment below.
At 11:26 PM 4/12/2003, you wrote:
>1912. Yes. Ribs don't really have any crown.
>
>I yanked apart an 1893 Knabe upright and was amazed at the crown on the
>ribs! Major, major crown.
>
>The Baldwin M I am going to install a new soundboard in - I removed the
>old soundboard because it had a bad killer octave area - now that board is
>out, it has big-time reverse crown.
>
>My understanding is that all(?) Steinways start out with flat ribs - no
>crown machined into them.
Yes, but was this always true?
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Greg Newell" <gnewell@ameritech.net>
>To: "Pianotech" <pianotech@ptg.org>
>Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2003 11:11 PM
>Subject: Re: Killer Octave Question
>
>
> > Terry,
> > How old a Mason is it? Is this the upright you've been working
> on?
> > Can you ascertain whether the ribs were crowned or not? Can anyone give
> > information as to what companies may have used rib crowned panels, when
> and
> > for how long?
> >
> > Greg Newell
> >
> >
> >
> > At 11:00 PM 4/12/2003, you wrote:
> >
> > >FWIW: I just cut a long bridge out of an old Mason & Hamlin and it is as
> > >flat as a pancake. Not a speck of crown to be found.
> > >
> > >Terry Farrell
> > >
> > >----- Original Message -----
> > >From: "Greg Newell" <gnewell@ameritech.net>
> > >To: "Pianotech" <pianotech@ptg.org>
> > >Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2003 8:00 PM
> > >Subject: Re: Killer Octave Question
> > >
> > >
> > > > John,
> > > > Since, I think, that we are all interested in a piano
> being the
> > > > best it can be whether that involves re-engineering or copying the
> > > original
> > > > design can we agree that this is not intended to be any kind of a
> "pissing
> > > > match" as you put it? With regard to your points below I'd like to ask
> > > > your views on some of the items with a little more specificity.
> > > >
> > > > 1) How can you be sure that the original bridges were machined with
> some
> > > > sort of crown and didn't simply take on some kind of compressions set?
> > > >
> > > > 2) You say it adds in supporting crown in both directions but if
> you were
> > > > to take a bridge blank (uncrowned) and lay it across an installed and
> > > > crowned soundboard (whether rib crowned or compression crowned)
> could you
> > > > not easily press down on both ends of the blank and have it meet the
> > > board?
> > > > If it is this easy to do how can it aid in the supporting of crown?
> I'm
> > > not
> > > > pissing, I really want to know.
> > > >
> > > > 3) OK but this could be from compression set as easily as from the
> > > > intentional crowning of the bridge, no?
> > > >
> > > > 4) It seems to me that this knowledge is what were after here.
> > > >
> > > > 5) Well, again, that's what we're trying to find out. If it can be
> > > > quantified, at least in some small way, it could be ascertained if the
> > > > exercise is worth the effort, if in fact that was an intended
> original or
> > > > beneficial design.
> > > >
> > > > 6) I agree that it wouldn't be that hard to do but, again, is it really
> > > > desired?
> > > >
> > > > 7) Well, yeah, I guess that would be correct. No harm to the piano
> but i
> > > > can think of better things to do if it provides no real benefit.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I hope neither of you minds me jumping in on this. I'd truly like to
> > > > understand what the best approach here is. If I'm wrong I'd sure
> like to
> > > > know so that my next board and every one beyond that will get
> better and
> > > > better each time.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > regards,
> > > >
> > > > Greg Newell
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > At 07:40 PM 4/12/2003, you wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >Well Ron,
> > > > >
> > > > >Are you trying to drown me with questions? I haven't yet finished
> > > > >responding to your last flock and now you have a few more. I'll
> tell you
> > > > >what, lets not get into a pissing match on this. From reading your
> posts
> > > > >in the archives I know our points of view are different and I have no
> > > > >chance of convincing you of anything. I am not interested in
> persuading
> > > > >you or getting drawn into long debate.
> > > > >
> > > > >This all started when I tried to answer a question. I think I made my
> > > > >point and was of some help. I will continue to try and help those with
> > > > >less experience than I by offering input. I also look forward to
> hearing
> > > > >from more experienced technicians who may answer my questions. I think
> > > > >there are others on this list that may be interested in discussing
> piano
> > > > >rebuilding issues from a point of view other than piano
> > > > >re-engineering. Someone with your level of experience may not
> need this
> > > > >but I know this is what I am interested in. In the years I have been
> > > > >rebuilding pianos there are only a few instances when a re-engineering
> > > > >approach was practical, beneficial or profitable. Most all of the
> > > > >knowledge that has been useful to me comes from studying how these
> pianos
> > > > >worked and sounded. For the most part replicating their design and
> > > > >implementing many of the original techniques leads directly to better
> > > > >results and improved efficiency. I know through the phone calls I
> get and
> > > > >questions at chapter meetings I attend that there are many technicians
> > > > >just starting out or at an intermediate level that are interested in
> > > these
> > > > >basics of piano re-building.
> > > > >
> > > > >As far as crowned bridges are concerned these are the facts as I
> see them.
> > > > >
> > > > >1) Some Pianos were made with crowned bridges. Steinway and Mason &
> > > > >Hamlin for sure.
> > > > >
> > > > >2) A crowned bridge works with the ribs to form the belly (soundboard
> > > > >crown in both directions).
> > > > >
> > > > >3) The highest point of the curve was under the low treble.
> > > > >
> > > > >4) We don't know how or why or if this works to help the tone.
> > > > >
> > > > >5) It's obvious that a crowned bridge could add strength to the
> > > soundboard
> > > > >but not sure how much.
> > > > >
> > > > >6) It is easy and fast to do if you know how to use basic woodworking
> > > tools.
> > > > >
> > > > >7) There is no evidence that it harms the piano in any way.
> > > > >
> > > > >This is all I have to say about it at this time. In the future
> could you,
> > > > >Ron, please ask only one or two questions at a time?
> > > > >
> > > > >John Hartman RPT
> > > > >
> > > > >John Hartman Pianos
[link redacted at request of site owner - Jul 25, 2015]
> > > > >Rebuilding Steinway and Mason & Hamlin
> > > > >Grand Pianos Since 1979
> > > > >
> > > > >Piano Technicians Journal
> > > > >Journal Illustrator/Contributing Editor
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >Ron Nossaman wrote:
> > > > >>
> > > > >>>Phew Ron,
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>Are you sure you what me to answer all of these questions?
> > > > >>
> > > > >>Yup, I'm sure.
> > > > >>
> > > > >>> >> I have worked on many brands of grand pianos and have
> observed that
> > > > >>> >> some pianos seem not to have this feature but the two brands
> that
> > > > >>> >> consistently show evidence of bridge crowning are Steinway
> and Mason
> > > > >>> >> and Hamlin.
> > > > >>> >
> > > > >>> >
> > > > >>> > John,
> > > > >>> > How then does this correlate with the number of new Steinways
> we see
> > > > >>> > (often enough on the showroom floor) with concave crown in
> the killer
> > > > >>> > octave? It seems to me that if a crowned bridge is supporting
> > > soundboard
> > > > >>> > crown and making it last longer, there ought to be soundboard
> > > crown to
> > > > >>> > show for it. Especially in a new piano.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>Since my rebuilding process involves soundboard replacement I usualy
> > > > >>>work on pianos that are over the hill - say 40 years old or more.
> > > > >>
> > > > >>I don't think any of us make a living replacing soundboards in new
> > > > >>pianos, so I would assume that as a given.
> > > > >>
> > > > >>>As far as how new pianos are fairing; all I can think is that we are
> > > > >>>simply not living at a time in history that is conducive to building
> > > > >>>fine pianos. We no longer have the cheap skilled work force or the
> > > > >>>economic momentum (competition for a growing marker) that was the
> > > > >>>fertile environment that nurtured these fine instruments.
> > > > >>>Furthermore, and most telling is how far we are removed from the
> > > > >>>aesthetic soil that gave rise to a true renaissance in piano
> building.
> > > > >>>The public's ears are no longer attuned to the subtleties of
> tone and
> > > > >>>fewer and fewer of them would know the difference between the frogs
> > > seen
> > > > >>>in hotel lobbies or the finely prepared pianos of Carnegie Hall. Now
> > > > >>>days we are lucky if a few pop out the factory door without
> fatal flaws.
> > > > >>
> > > > >>We're talking about crowned bridges here, and these bridges are being
> > > > >>made by the same methods, and on the same machinery, and from close
> > > > >>enough to the same material as they were forty - or eighty years
> ago. If
> > > > >>they supported crown then, they ought to support crown now. At least
> > > long
> > > > >>enough to make it out of the showroom. So again, why do so many new
> > > > >>Steinways with these crowned bridges have concave crown in the killer
> > > > >>octaves? This is simple straightforward mechanics not having a
> lot to do
> > > > >>with the cost of labor or the golden age of anything. You said that
> > > > >>crowned bridges support soundboard crown and make it last longer. If
> > > > >>that's the case, why don't we see it in the pianos?
> > > > >>
> > > > >>>Fortunately the news is not all black for us technicians in this
> era of
> > > > >>>shrinking interest in the piano. There are still a few great oaks
> > > > >>>standing in the old growth forest. They with there followers are
> still
> > > > >>>interested in the piano and the music written for it. I can't
> think of
> > > > >>>any of them that I have met that would not want their piano to
> sound
> > > and
> > > > >>>play as well as those built at the height of the golden era of piano
> > > > >>>building. It is their hope as - I hear it - that playing these
> pianos
> > > > >>>will give them greater insight into the music they love to play. I
> > > think
> > > > >>>that studying these instruments is vital to us technicians - and not
> > > > >>>just studying how they don't work but how they do work.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>John Hartman RPT
> > > > >>
> > > > >>How they work, and what does and doesn't make them work is
> exactly what
> > > > >>I'm addressing here.
> > > > >>Ron N
> > > > >>_______________________________________________
> > > > >>pianotech list info: https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >--
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >_______________________________________________
> > > > >pianotech list info: https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Greg Newell
> > > > mailto:gnewell@ameritech.net
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >-----------------------------------------------------------------------
> ---------
> > >
> > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > pianotech list info: https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives
> > > >
> > >_______________________________________________
> > >pianotech list info: https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives
> >
> > Greg Newell
> > mailto:gnewell@ameritech.net
> >
>
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> > _______________________________________________
> > pianotech list info: https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives
> >
>_______________________________________________
>pianotech list info: https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives
Greg Newell
mailto:gnewell@ameritech.net
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