Hello,
"Isaac sur Noos"
<oleg-i@noos.fr> To: <davidlovepianos@earthlink.net>, "Pianotech"
Sent by: <pianotech@ptg.org>
pianotech-bounces cc:
@ptg.org Subject: RE: Yamaha hammers
11/06/2003 01:24
PM
Please respond to
oleg-i; Please
respond to
Pianotech
David,
As said before I am found of the Andre needles (Japan made) , I only
have them since august, but they are so sharp and thin they really go
deep where you want them.
I can provide you the size : thickness 0.7 mm - length 40 mm, the
eyelet is gold treated , nice looking, and no need to cut the eyelet
to insert the needles in the holder.
When only 6 mm lenght is used and powerful needling is done, the
needles go really deep enough and they will not break (even at 6.5
mm) - unless the move is hesitant, the hammers are not firmly hold
with the other hand or the zen attitude gone somewhere ;>)
Needles sold by Renner to us are : # 5 (thickness 0.8 mm) # 6 - 0.75
mm - or #7 (0,7mm) they are all stainless steel nickel plated I guess,
so they can break, (not like soft John james) they all need to have
the eyelet cut (the French ones too)
The French needles (brand BOHIN)are more in an ogive shape than the
English ones or other needles, their metal quality is better than
English ones but because of their shape they are acting more thick
that corresponding English or German ones, a # 7 French needle act
like a #6 English one for instance, even if the body is thinner - that
is what I guess .
I am unsure that soft needles allow the strong jabs and the use of the
arm like a ream that are necessary to first needling, when I tried
them they where always bending - may be I should experiment less
problems with them actually !
I trained myself to needle a little square zone in a single head hold
with 3 fingers on a table, while needling from a 25-30 cm heigh with
force, afterthat no fear of holes in the fingers and a better
understanding that the straight move rarely break the needles. Feeling
its arm and shoulder is the difficult part in fact, particularely when
sitting at the piano in a somewhat inconfortable posture.
Anyway slow needling produce only results in the battery, or for
probing, it does not free enough energy in the felt while using the
resources, so I stay away of it, even for the crown only weight
regulation is necessary, to feel the feedback, slowliness oblige to
needle more.
I like to write - hope its not too unclear.
Best regards.
------------------------------------
Isaac OLEG
accordeur - reparateur - concert
oleg-i@noos.fr
19 rue Jules Ferry
94400 VITRY sur SEINE
tel: 033 01 47 18 06 98
fax: 33 01 47 18 06 90
mobile: 033 06 60 42 58 77
------------------------------------
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : pianotech-bounces@ptg.org
> [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org]De la
> part de David Love
> Envoye : jeudi 6 novembre 2003 19:45
> A : oleg-i@noos.fr, Pianotech
> Objet : RE: Yamaha hammers
>
>
> I certainly hope they will open with 30 - 50 jabs, I know I
> do. On the
> more serious side. I do use John James needles. Never
> thought about the
> hardness of a needle. What needle makers do you recommend,
> what size do
> you use, and where would you get them?
>
> David Love
> davidlovepianos@earthlink.net
>
>
> > [Original Message]
> > From: Isaac sur Noos <oleg-i@noos.fr>
> > To: Pianotech <pianotech@ptg.org>
> > Date: 11/6/2003 10:27:33 AM
> > Subject: RE: Yamaha hammers
> >
> >
> > Hi Andre,
> >
> > About the Japanese needles, I consider now my voicing tool like a
> > precision device, once loaded with your needles (no
> colateral damage,
> > not even in the fingers)
> >
> > Took me some time to appreciate them, because they are so
> sharp/thin
> > and I usually break when beginning to be less
> concentrated (or smiling
> > at the passing bird ...)
> >
> > It is indeed good to know by advance that the needles
> will go there
> > exactly where you want to - less sharp needles tend to rebound on
> > dense felt, and we tend to be too much forceful then (and
> they break)
> > Soft needles (John James) I don't know how to use, nor
> why they are
> > used.
> >
> > Yamaha C series I have used recently where all but stone hard, and
> > they open very neately with 30/50 jabs.
> >
> > Till, a friend explain me he likes (for new hammers) to
> begin slowly
> > deep needle in the base of the hammers (just above the impregnated
> > part but in direction of the end of the fiber) , so to have a more
> > confident (mean denser ) material to work with when building "the
> > cushion" (TM)
> >
> > I may say I should be inclined to do that if I don't feel
> enough the
> > fiber reaction while doing the first needling - I understand you
> > instruct to leave that "battery needling" for later correction of
> > underpowered notes, but I've find that too much needling
> the shoulders
> > when looking for elasticity can easely tend to a bad
> deformation near
> > the crown.
> >
> > Can't the process of giving that supplement of density
> first give a
> > better control when building the cushion ? Or is a good
> voicer able to
> > get the most of a decent new hammer head without resorting to it .
> >
> > As it have been noticed, modern hammers have often not a lot of
> > internal tension at first. I believe the tension is there
> under the
> > form of felt compression. The deep needling conducted,
> releasing more
> > (denser) material in the middle of the hammer, creates
> that tension up
> > to some point.
> >
> > The fact that Wurzen felt is yet toning well without a lot of this
> > tension is of course appreciated. It is also a big
> advantage in humid
> > climates, as more inert fiber became totally mushy sounding when
> > Wurzen continue to sound nice. But on the other hand, the
> rebound on
> > the string being slower, some kind of tone are not
> allowed until the
> > hammer have packed down under use, I mean a few years may be.
> >
> > The Steinway techs I know have been very surprized by the
> change in
> > felt when it occurs, when treated properly the older kind
> felt seem to
> > be reactivated a lot of time, and allow more easely the superpower
> > that is sometime needed by these instruments)
> >
> > They where expecting Wurzen to hold less long, time seem
> to prove the
> > contrary, but they learned to needle less also I guess.
> >
> > Thanks for your comments.
> >
> > Voicing, the most important subject on earth after
> regulation and CO2.
> >
> >
> > Friendly Greetings
> >
> >
> > Isaac OLEG
> >
> >
> > > The CFIII-S has Wurzen felt, which makes all the
> difference in tone
> > > building from the start.
> > >
> > > btw, we sell Japanese needles that only break if you have
> > > no experience
> > > with voicing.
> > >
> > >
> > > On donderdag, nov 6, 2003, at 17:28 Europe/Amsterdam,
> > > cswearingen@daigger.com wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Just a few months ago, I applied an alcohol/water
> solution to my
> > > > Yamaha U1
> > > > hammers because I had the same problem - couldn't get
> > > even a single
> > > > needle
> > > > to penetrate the hammers - they just kept breaking off.
> > > My U1 is only
> > > > about 5 years old but the hammers were like concrete.
> > > >
> > > > My intention was to soften up the hammers so I could
> > > needle them but
> > > > after
> > > > applying the solution, the bright/harsh tone was
> > > drastically brought
> > > > down
> > > > and so I decided not to needle them. I would assume that
> > > the needles
> > > > would
> > > > be easier to insert once the hammers have been soaked
> with this
> > > > alcohol/water solution (and allowed to dry overnight).
> > > >
> > > > Before I did this, I was constantly playing with the soft
> > > pedal trying
> > > > to
> > > > coax a softer/warmer sound from the instrument. I really
> > > love the tone
> > > > change after using the solution. Be careful however as
> > > it will bring a
> > > > drastic change. You will be able to play softer and get
> > > a much warmer
> > > > tone
> > > > but it will be at the expense of being able to get a ff
> > > or triple ff
> > > > out of
> > > > the instrument. For me, personally, it was a trade-off
> > > that was worth
> > > > it.
> > > > It's been about 6-8 weeks since I did this and the tone
> > > has brightened
> > > > up a
> > > > bit but it still has a much warmer pleasing tone than
> > > before. I should
> > > > mention that after I soaked the hammers and they dried, I
> > > shaped the
> > > > hammers, fine strip-sanded them with 300 grit emory
> > > cloth, and finally
> > > > ironed the hammers to a very smooth polish.
> > > >
> > > > There is also someone on this list that recommends
> steaming the
> > > > hammers.
> > > > Seems to me that this would have similar effect in that
> > > it expands the
> > > > fibers within the hammer. The only reason I didn't try
> > > steaming was
> > > > that,
> > > > for me, it was much easier to simply use the
> > > alcohol/water solution
> > > > from a
> > > > eye-dropper.
> > > >
> > > > Corte Swearingen
> > > > Chicago
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Erwinspiano@aol.c
> > > > om To:
> > > > pianotech@ptg.org
> > > > Sent by: cc:
> > > > pianotech-bounces Subject:
> > > Re: Yamaha
> > > > hammers
> > > > @ptg.org
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 11/06/2003 09:42
> > > > AM
> > > > Please respond to
> > > > Pianotech
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > In a message dated 11/6/2003 6:04:04 AM Pacific Standard Time,
> > > > A440A@aol.com writes:
> > > >> The hammers are so hard that if you begin at the upper
> > > shoulder, the
> > > >> tension in them will tear them apart after a while.
> > > >> Regards,
> > > >> Ed Foote RPT
> > > > Hi Ed
> > > > And Yamaha builds these hammers this way
> > > because...............?
> > > > For all my debt of professional gratitude due Yamaha &
> > > for all there
> > > > ingenius wonderful pianos I can't figure this & have
> > > never heard an
> > > > explanation. Soundboard that vibrate freely DO NOT
> > > require hammers O
> > > > stone.
> > > > Still don't get it in Modesto.--Dale
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > pianotech list info:
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> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
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> > >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
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>
>
>
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