Trent: It sounds to me like you have the temperament strip too close to the termination point. That will allow a lot of bleed through. Move the temperament strip down close to the hammer line and it will dampen the outside strings better. dave __________________________________________ David M. Porritt, RPT Meadows School of the Arts Southern Methodist University Dallas, TX 75275 dporritt@mail.smu.edu ----- Original message ----------------------------------------> From: "Lesher, Trent J." <tlesher@sachnoff.com> To: <pianotech@ptg.org> Received: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 17:44:01 -0600 Subject: question about temperament strips (was RE: one rubber mute) >Hello all, >I have just begun learning to tune. A few weeks ago I did my first complete tuning on a >piano I recently acquired. Actually, so far I've done it over more or less completely >twice, because the bass and treble ends didn't sound so good the first time. This was all >on a 1921 Bush and Lane upright, and I'd taken the tension completely off the strings >to do some bridge stuff when I got it, so the first tuning took a few days. (By the way, I >want to say thanks to many on this list who shared their knowledge, because even >though I have several books and the first 1/5 of the Randy Potter course, when I got >confused about something I could often start to get a grip on it after searching the ptg >postings.) >Anyway, getting to the point, this gave me some confidence, so last week I decided to >tackle my other piano, a 1973 Mason & Hamlin 50" upright. >This piano is much harder for me to tune. I am not sure why. Maybe it is partly >because it is much brighter than the Bush & Lane. I could have done a neat experiment >about that, because the Bush & Lane was MUCH harder and brighter when I first got it, >and the M&H seemed mellow by comparison. But unfortunately, I steamed the >hammers and did a lot of other voicing-down stuff on the Bush & Lane before I tuned it, >so I never got to compare the effect of the brightness on how hard it was to tune the >same piano. And now it's the M&H which seems very much brighter. >When I say the M&H is much harder to tune, I mean just setting the temperament so >far. I haven't got past that yet. >The one thing I DO notice for sure when I'm trying to tune the Mason & Hamlin >upright, that makes it difficult for me, is that it is really hard to hear JUST the >undamped middle strings beating together. Over and over, I was going back and forth >with notes I just couldn't seem to align decisively, and which seemed like they were >contradicting themselves, only to find out that it was one of the other, presumably >damped, strings of the unison that was causing the muddle. (A lot of the time I was just >trying to make fifths beatless (at 3:2, I think) and the like, because I was going to tune it >aurally to Kirnberger II, and then re-tune it to ET when I learn enough to do so aurally. >The B&L I had tuned to Young's 1899, setting the temperament initially with a $35 >Seiko electronic tuner, just doing a couple adjustments by ear.) >On the Bush & Lane, I'd noticed this interference from the damped outside strings a few >times, too, but it only had an effect for the first fraction of a second or so, then >presumably the temperament strip killed the interference. But on the Mason & Hamlin, >the interference from the outside strings seemed to last a couple seconds or so. Plus, it >seems like maybe it actually influences the middle string, and it seems to make the last >steps of zero-ing in ambiguous. >So on the Mason & Hamlin, I found myself using the rubber wedges, four at a time, to >eliminate all this extraneous noise from the outside strings. >I was wondering if anyone else finds it difficult to adequately damp the outside strings >with a felt temperament strip. Or is my technique wrong, either the way I'm listening or >the way I'm using the strip, although I can't see too many ways to drastically improve >how I put it in. Is noise from the outside strings normal, and you're supposed to learn to >work around it? Or maybe I just have a cheap or incorrect type of temperament strip. >I noticed that the one that came in the Randy Potter materials seemed to have a high >synthetic content. Maybe it would work better, but something happened to it >(involving it's being called to service in another musical instrument), so I've been using a >feltier/woolier one that I got in a box of miscellaneous used piano stuff, so I don't know >much about it. It doesn't seem to fit too loosely or anything though. >Even when I was tuning the Bush & Lane, getting the muted strings to be muted enough >to hear more clearly was a recurrent concern as I worked (but not as much so on that >piano). >Basically, I'm wondering if being bothered by this is just some kind of beginner's thing. >Or is there really a problem with how I'm muting the strings that I can readily improve >with the right materials or techniques? Or it is neither, and it bothers everyone >sometimes, but you just have to do your best with it? >I should mention that because I've been doing a lot of temperament changing and >pitch-raising type things, the three strings of the unisons are often pretty far off from >each other, more than normal, so maybe that has something to do with this. >What do you think I should try next? >Thanks for any help and best regards, >Trent Lesher >-----Original Message----- >From: David Love [mailto:davidlovepianos@comcast.net] >Sent: Friday, November 05, 2004 2:10 PM >To: 'Phillip Ford'; 'Pianotech' >Subject: RE: one rubber mute >When I was tuning aurally I found that the temperament strip (literally >used for the temperament) was best. Since temperaments vary slightly on >different pianos, using a single, or more commonly, a four mute method, >which I tried, just ended up with to many redos of notes already tuned. >Since I tuned a two octave temperament, at least in part, I found that >stripping A2, C#3, F3 - A4, worked the best. That allowed for minor >adjustments to the temperament octave without have to retune entire >unisons. After those unisons were pulled in, a two mute unisons as you >go method worked best for me. But, to each his own. >David Love >davidlovepianos@comcast.net >Let's see. We'll talk about Bush and Kerry on the list, but when you're >going to have a discussion of tuning you're going to take it off list? >I >think you ought to carry on this discussion here. When I read Jason's >post >I thought the question above echoed my own questions (or skepticism, if >you >will) about this single mute method. I don't have a lot of trouble >seeing >that it might work well outside the temperament octave, but I'm >skeptical >that it would result in a better temperament octave in a reasonable >amount >of time. I would appreciate more specific details about the process >that >you follow to set the temperament octave using one mute. >Phil Ford >_______________________________________________ >pianotech list info: https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives >****** IMPORTANT NOTICE ****** >This e-mail, and any attachments hereto, is intended only for use by the >addressee(s) named herein and may contain legally privileged and/or >confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient of this >e-mail, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or >copying of this e-mail, and any attachments hereto, is strictly prohibited. >If you have received this e-mail in error, please immediately notify me >at (312) 207-1000 and permanently delete the original and any copy of any >e-mail and any printout thereof. >_______________________________________________ >pianotech list info: https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives
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