Conrad: I do not trust most websites at all and that's where most of this rumormongering comes from. The internet is replete with all kinds of garbage--remember the Clintons murdering Vince Foster? I have read Kerry's testimony and if you read it in full, not just the excerpts used by the Swift Boat Vets, it makes more sense in context. I think what he did was important in bringing to light the horrors of an illegal war. It was certainly important enough for Nixon to try and use his dirty tricks team to destroy Kerry--that alone gives him credibility in my eyes. By the way, all of these ridiculous claims don't seem to have hurt his relationship with John McCain. The following was published on factcheck.org as it researched the claims Kerrys alleged traitorous behavior. Also recall that Kerry's testimony came several years after My Lai and one month after the conviction of Lt. Calley. While the treatment of Vietnam Vets by the American public was regrettable and undeserved, you can hardly blame Kerry for that. Attitudes about the war were already well established by then.: ...And since Kerry testified, ample evidence of other atrocities has come to light: Son Thang: In 1998, for example, Marine Corps veteran Gary D. Solis published the book Son Thang: An American War Crime describing the court-martial of four US Marines for the apparently unprovoked killing 16 women and children on the night of February 19, 1970 in a hamlet about 20 miles south of Danang. The four Marines testified that they were under orders by their patrol leader to shoot the villagers. A young Oliver North appeared as a character witness and helped acquit the leader of all charges, but three were convicted. Tiger Force: The Toledo Blade won a Pulitzer Prize this year for a series published in October, 2003 reporting that atrocities were committed by an elite US Army "Tiger Force" unit that the Blade said killed unarmed civilians and children during a seven-month rampage in 1967. "Elderly farmers were shot as they toiled in the fields. Prisoners were tortured and executed - their ears and scalps severed for souvenirs. One soldier kicked out the teeth of executed civilians for their gold fillings," the Blade reported. "Investigators concluded that 18 soldiers committed war crimes ranging from murder and assault to dereliction of duty. But no one was charged." "Hundreds" of others: In December 2003 The New York Times quoted Nicholas Turse, a doctoral candidate at Columbia University who has been studying government archives, as saying the records are filled with accounts of atrocities similar to those described by the Toledo Blade series. "I stumbled across the incidents The Blade reported," Turse was quoted as saying. "I read through that case a year, year and a half ago, and it really didn't stand out. There was nothing that made it stand out from anything else. That's the scary thing. It was just one of hundreds." "Exact Same Stories": Keith Nolan, author of 10 published books on Vietnam, says he's heard many veterans describe atrocities just like those Kerry recounted from the Winter Soldier event. Nolan told FactCheck.org that since 1978 he's interviewed roughly 1,000 veterans in depth for his books, and spoken to thousands of others. "I have heard the exact same stories dozens if not hundreds of times over," he said. "Wars produce atrocities. Frustrating guerrilla wars produce a particularly horrific number of atrocities. That some individual soldiers and certain units responded with excessive brutality in Vietnam shouldn't really surprise anyone." David Love davidlovepianos@comcast.net -----Original Message----- From: pianotech-bounces@ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces@ptg.org] On Behalf Of Conrad Hoffsommer Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2004 7:18 PM To: Pianotech Subject: RE: OT Political - {my last word} David, Speaking out politically is WAY different than my norm, and the way this eternal campaign has polarised the country will probably lose me some friends on this list, but I feel I must - please indulge me this last time. I'm not Carl, but _I_ do not need to check websites to determine Kerry's culpability, but I may dig into my old seabag, pull out my Bluejacket's Manual and rely on my first hand experience of the effects of Kerry. If you really still trust websites at this point, perhaps you should re-read Kerry's own words during his Senate testimony, and also afterwards, where he admits participating in the same atrocities which he said were happening. Or... did he say he was just reporting what other vets had told him. Oh... that's right... he said both. Which version was purgery? Since I was in the area at the time (Tonkin Gulf) and in the same organization (US Navy '67-'73) and trying to live under the same rules (UCMJ) [Uniform Code of Military Justice], let me try to help you with you some of the military rules with regard to his traitorous activities. Whilst Kerry was still a commissioned officer and ostensibly bound by the UCMJ, he visited with members of the Viet Cong in Paris. How a Lieutenant (Paygrade O-2or3 -- i.e. next to the bottom of officer ranks since Ensign was routinely skipped) thought he could effect peace, who knows? However, there is a term called "consorting with the enemy". In a war, the idea generally is that, if you meet an enemy, you do all you can to kill him. It's brutal, but that IS what war IS. {Note to Bill Clinton - there's that word again} As an officer, it is your sworn DUTY to do that and lead others to do the same. You don't generally sit down to croissants and caviar with the enemy unless you are a general, admiral or head of state. Money talks, I suppose, as Saddam knew in his dealings with the same multiple UN members which Kerry thinks he'd get as allies. I recall several times in my military career having these things drilled into my head, so I don't need to consult a website to tell me that, if I as a 2nd class petty officer (only E-5 or middle of non-commissioned officers, having turned down E-6 opportunities to return to civilian life) had done the same thing, I would still be in Fort Leavenworth for it, if not in an unmarked grave. How good was he for the morale of troops/sailors in those years? He certainly didn't make any points with me or my shipmates. In the spring of 1970, when my ship got back from it's tour of duty in the war zone - with _IT'S_ current mission accomplished and signs celebrating that fact - I did a lot of traveling around southern and, later, northern California. I went to concerts at Dorothy Chandler Pavilion (free or at a discount), hitchhiked, went to movies and church and got invited into strangers homes for home cooked meals, even got some dates after those meals. ALL WHILE IN UNIFORM. In the fall of 1972, when I got back from my second WestPac "cruise", sailors were, by that time, again allowed to grow beards and have (even encouraged to have) civilian clothes onboard and allowed (even encouraged) to go on "liberty" in civvies. WHY? Because, by then, people were shouting the "baby killer' and other phrases which Kerry had made so popular in 1971. Being IN DANGER while wearing your uniform IN YOUR OWN COUNTRY is NOT good for morale! Having a long hair wig to escape military haircut detection, and getting spat upon for defending your country is NOT good for morale (I did and I was)! _Trust me_, not some New York Times/CBS fabrifacts. It took me 20 years before I felt comfortable even joining the VFW. I lay that sputum in my face directly on Kerry's doorstep. His statements were not a little over the top. They were slanderous and self-incriminating, if you could believe any of them. They were certainly demoralising, and a comfort to the enemy, whether true or not. The soldiers/sailors/marines in Iraq do NOT want a POTUS/CIC (President of the US /Commander in Chief) who is against what they are doing in the first place. Kerry would have the same benefit to military morale in 2005 as he did in 1971. Voting to approve military action and then voting against support for the same action does not instill a feeling of comfort among those who depend on that support for their lives, either. My 10¢. Conrad Hoffsommer -Former Machinist's Mate 2nd Class - USN -Nuclear power plant operator aboard USS Long Beach (CGN-9) 1970-73 Yup, it's personal. over and out. _______________________________________________ pianotech list info: https://www.moypiano.com/resources/#archives
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