Was OnlyPure not P12ths Tunings

[Bernhard Stopper]

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ron Koval" <drwoodwind@hotmail.com>
To: <pianotech@ptg.org>
Sent: Friday, April 15, 2005 4:04 PM
Subject: Was OnlyPure not P12ths Tunings


>I think I've got a handle on this now...
>
> There's nothing pure in OnlyPure, just a declaration:
>
> "For inharmonicity related
> instruments, pure means the state, where the sum of the beats is minimal."
>

No, it should be pure for all of this 4 three-note combinations, the pure 
state is only limited by inharmonicity.
On a concert grand, you can easily reach a "quasi" pure sound of every 
octave with a inner and or outer fifth.

> Ok, I'm following... kindof the Virgil Smith "whole tone" approach to 
> tuning octaves.  (By the way, the Verituner is able to replicate this 
> using the balancing multi partial approach in the custom style function) 
> Which EDT will you be "facing" in your European demonstration?
>
> But the key idea seems to be using inside and outside fifths along with 
> the octave for placement.  If you search on this list, there used to be a 
> technician named Bill Bremmer (the ONE who must not be named!) that tunes 
> only optimizing temperaments, namely the equal beating victorian 
> temperament.  In any non-equal temperament, there will be a varience of 
> beat speeds of the fifths.  He used this to temper the octaves as well to 
> come up with the same effect you speak of. In tuning the octaves he would 
> balance the beatspeed of the tempered fifth- any one - with the beatspeed 
> of the octave.   He also stated that this was a viable method for tuning 
> ET, but since the fifths were all tempered evenly, the octaves wouldn't 
> end up tempered - yet using the guidance of all of the fifths and octaves 
> together, he described the "sheen" he got with this tuning method.

Bill Bremmer did not use combinations of octave and fifth, he uses a perfect 
twelve  and a double octave (he must work with the sostenuto pedal to handle 
his approach) and does not tune the perfect twelve pure.
He call the perfect twelfth "an octave and a fifth" what can be 
misunderstood as that he uses an octave and a fifth, but with the example he 
give, it is clear:

i quote from Bill Bremmers website:
" Now, once you have 2 full octaves, F3-F5, it becomes very easy to 
determine the very best compromise for the octaves possible.  Here is the 
method I use which I have never heard of anyone else proposing at any time: 
Using the Sostenuto pedal, play the double octave, then the octave and a 
5th.  Example, F3-F5, then A#3(Bb3)-F5.  Find the point when the double 
octave sounds just barely pure, then listen to the octave and 5th.  You 
should notice a pronounced beat (which does not sound satisfying to the ear 
at all).  Now sharpen the upper note, F5 until the double octave starts to 
beat and continue sharpening until the double octave beats exactly the same 
as the octave and 5th. "


To get all those combinations pure one must use the OnlyPure method with 
2-note perfect twelfths and 3-note combinations of  octaves and fifths. 
Using also the inner octave fifths is necessary to reach the symmetric state 
where ALL of those 3-note combinations of octave and fifths become quasi 
pure.

best regards,

Bernhard