Grist for the Mill

[James Grebe]

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It does not take that long in MO
James Grebe
Piano-Forte Tuning & Repair
Creator of Handsome Hardwood Caster Cups, piano benches, writing =
instruments
(314) 608-4137
WWW.JamesGrebe.com
1526 Raspberry Lane
Arnold, MO 63010
BECOME WHAT YOU BELIEVE!
pianoman@accessus.net
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Farrell=20
  To: Pianotech=20
  Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2005 9:03 PM
  Subject: Re: Grist for the Mill


  5 cents per year? Quite unreasonable. With only one exception, pianos =
that I tune regularly - at least once per year (and most only once per =
year) - never need a pitch raise - and if any were 5 cents flat, it =
would need a pitch raise. Two cents or less per year would be my =
estimate. Do you find pianos that have not been tuned for 10 years to be =
50 cents flat? I find that it takes more like 25 or 30 years (or more) =
to go 50 cents flat.

  Terry Farrell

    Oh, yeah? Well they laughed at Rodney Dangerfield, too!=20

    Okay, maybe it's a not-so-stable piano, who knows? As we go about =
tuning, let's all the folks with ETDs experiment a time or two ...=20

    How far do you you turn a pin to bring a piano up 50 cents? Let's =
say the sucker is only tuned every ten years, falling 5 cents a year =
(not unreasonable, Shirley). That makes 10 tunings at 50 cents flat each =
time. I'm thinking that's good for about 4 additional coils, minimum ...

    Let the Cyberspace Electrons fly! It ain't over yet ... the fat lady =
is still in the wings, eating wings, awaiting a curtain call.*

    Alan Barnard
    Helmut Still On, One Minor Dent, in Salem, MO

    *You can identify the call of the Western Red-Tufted Curtain by its =
swooping hoop, rising half a semitone while the bird lifts its head up =
about 135 degrees (Fahrenheit).

      ----- Original Message -----=20
      From: Farrell=20
      To: Pianotech
      Sent: 05/11/2005 8:18:33 PM=20
      Subject: Re: Grist for the Mill


      A 30 degree turn of a tuning pin every year on a stable piano? No =
way!

      Calculate the pitch increase with a 30 degree rotation on a 2/0 =
pin - even the 7.5 degree rotation - I suspect you will very quickly =
realize your numbers are grossly excessive.

      Unless, of course, I am wrong. But I don't think so.

      Terry Farrell
        ----- Original Message -----=20
        From: alan and carolyn barnard=20
        To: Pianotech=20
        Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2005 8:50 PM
        Subject: Grist for the Mill



        We recently had a long dialog on here about the actual changes =
in a piano that has gone flat. There was much poo-pooing (can we say =
that on TV?) from some folks of the notion that tuning pins turned =
counter-clockwise when pianos go flat. Their arguments were logical and =
some folks even produced mathematics to demonstrated that pin reversal =
is unlikely.

        BUT ...

        I was thinking about this on my way home from PTG chapter =
meeting (2.5 hr drive) and came up with a little point of logic which =
suggests that the pins MUST move. See what you think ...

        Virtually all pianos go flat over longish time periods and =
certainly are found flat more often than sharp if you go through a whole =
cycle of season changes, i.e., an annual tuning. When we bring a flat =
string up to pitch, it tends to increase the width of the coil slightly =
every time we turn the pin. If the pin is turned one full =
revolution--360 degrees--over years of tuning, this would add the =
thickness dimension of the wire to the overall coil width and one full =
wire wrap to the number of coils.=20

        You with me?

        So let's take a hypothetical piano string--say a very stable =
1905 Howard upright A4 middle string--that has averaged (let's be =
conservative...) falling flat enough that a 7.5 degree turn of the pin =
was required each year to bring it up to pitch. Now 7.5 degrees is a =
fairly small annual adjustment, just a little tweak, actually. Ce n'est =
pas? It's only 1/6 if a quarter turn.

        So, between 1905 and 2005, we have turned that string's pin 100 =
X 7.5 =3D 750 degrees, more than two full turns.

        How many old pianos do we run into that have five or more coils =
on the pin? I never noticed any.  In fact, most seem to have the =
original 3 coils standing about as far from the plate as the day it was =
strung--unless someone has hammered them in, in which case it's still =
only about 3 coils!

        Pause ... thinkin on that?

        Now strings must become ever so slightly thinner as they =
stretch, especially in the earlier years. So, for the string to produce =
the same pitch, the string tension required would be ever so slightly =
less over time. This would have a very slight mitigating effect on the =
thought puzzle proposed above. But nowhere near enough to explain 100 =
years of flatness, methinks. And ven if the string is stretching, you =
would still be adding linear length to the coil every time. =20

        I believe, in fact, that about a 30 annual correction, or more, =
would be very common.  Think about your own real-world, real-piano =
experience. Visualize pulling your tuning hammer through a 30 degree =
arc, i.e., 1/3 of a quarter turn. That's still a pretty darned small =
once-a-year adjustment. So, I think my estimates here have been very, =
very conservative.

        Anyway, at 30 degrees the piano would have to have a total of 8+ =
full coils on every pin if the pin never turned backward.

        Your turn or, as we used to say in Viet Nam .... I n c o m i n g =
! ! !=20

        Alan Barnard
        Hunkered in the Bunker in Salem, MO


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