This is a multipart message in MIME format ---------------------- multipart/alternative attachment imho, whenever I find a piano 1/2 step flat it is because it was= never brought up to pitch in the original tunings or was never= tuned since new...that happens David I. Original message From: Michael Gamble To: Farrell , Received: Thu, 12 May 2005 14:47:48 +0100 Subject: Re: Grist for the Mill Hello Farrell and List I often am called to pianos which haven't seen a tuner for many,= many years. Frequently I find them just a tad down. Sometimes I= find them a tone down.... Let's face it - it depends on a= multiplicity of factors not least of which is Humidity, Central= Heating, being kept in a lean-to conservatory, in a stone-built= church, a theatre, Opera House, you name it there are too many= combinations out there to come to any reasonable conclusion.= Last week I went to an old friend (a piano, of course!) which I= hadn't seen for about ten years. The owner had put it into= storage three times, had given it to her daughter then the= daughter moved and it went back into storage. Now it is in an= old flint built farm cottage near the river Ouse and I went to= tune it again. "Hello my old friend" I thought "I haven't seen= you for a while - and how is this Collard & Collard upright?"= Actually it was just about spot on! So how can one generalise? I= do find some old pianos with up to four turns in the coil but I= am sure that was so originally and not as a result of long-term= bringing up to pitch. I have an ancient Bord WOOD FRAME upright= (French piano) I go to once a year (or longer) and it too stays= in tune quite acceptably. The owner is a singer and the children= play string instruments so they would know if it went out.= Amazing! Regards from a blowy and sunny Sussex village Michael G.(UK) ----- Original Message ----- From: Farrell To: Pianotech Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2005 3:03 AM Subject: Re: Grist for the Mill 5 cents per year? Quite unreasonable. With only one exception,= pianos that I tune regularly - at least once per year (and most= only once per year) - never need a pitch raise - and if any were= 5 cents flat, it would need a pitch raise. Two cents or less per= year would be my estimate. Do you find pianos that have not been= tuned for 10 years to be 50 cents flat? I find that it takes= more like 25 or 30 years (or more) to go 50 cents flat. Terry Farrell Oh, yeah? Well they laughed at Rodney Dangerfield, too! Okay, maybe it's a not-so-stable piano, who knows? As we go about= tuning, let's all the folks with ETDs experiment a time or two= ... How far do you you turn a pin to bring a piano up 50 cents? Let's= say the sucker is only tuned every ten years, falling 5 cents a= year (not unreasonable, Shirley). That makes 10 tunings at 50= cents flat each time. I'm thinking that's good for about 4= additional coils, minimum .... Let the Cyberspace Electrons fly! It ain't over yet ... the fat= lady is still in the wings, eating wings, awaiting a curtain= call.* Alan Barnard Helmut Still On, One Minor Dent, in Salem, MO *You can identify the call of the Western Red-Tufted Curtain by= its swooping hoop, rising half a semitone while the bird lifts= its head up about 135 degrees (Fahrenheit). ----- Original Message ----- From: Farrell To: Pianotech Sent: 05/11/2005 8:18:33 PM Subject: Re: Grist for the Mill A 30 degree turn of a tuning pin every year on a stable piano? No= way! Calculate the pitch increase with a 30 degree rotation on a 2/0= pin - even the 7.5 degree rotation - I suspect you will very= quickly realize your numbers are grossly excessive. Unless, of course, I am wrong. But I don't think so. Terry Farrell ----- Original Message ----- From: alan and carolyn barnard To: Pianotech Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2005 8:50 PM Subject: Grist for the Mill We recently had a long dialog on here about the actual changes in= a piano that has gone flat. There was much poo-pooing (can we= say that on TV?) from some folks of the notion that tuning pins= turned counter-clockwise when pianos go flat. Their arguments= were logical and some folks even produced mathematics to= demonstrated that pin reversal is unlikely. BUT ... I was thinking about this on my way home from PTG chapter meeting= (2.5 hr drive) and came up with a little point of logic which= suggests that the pins MUST move. See what you think ... Virtually all pianos go flat over longish time periods and= certainly are found flat more often than sharp if you go through= a whole cycle of season changes, i.e., an annual tuning. When we= bring a flat string up to pitch, it tends to increase the width= of the coil slightly every time we turn the pin. If the pin is= turned one full revolution--360 degrees--over years of tuning,= this would add the thickness dimension of the wire to the= overall coil width and one full wire wrap to the number of= coils. You with me? So let's take a hypothetical piano string--say a very stable 1905= Howard upright A4 middle string--that has averaged (let's be= conservative...) falling flat enough that a 7.5 degree turn of= the pin was required each year to bring it up to pitch. Now 7.5= degrees is a fairly small annual adjustment, just a little= tweak, actually. Ce n'est pas? It's only 1/6 if a quarter turn. So, between 1905 and 2005, we have turned that string's pin 100 X= 7.5 =3D 750 degrees, more than two full turns. How many old pianos do we run into that have five or more coils= on the pin? I never noticed any. In fact, most seem to have the= original 3 coils standing about as far from the plate as the day= it was strung--unless someone has hammered them in, in which= case it's still only about 3 coils! Pause ... thinkin on that? Now strings must become ever so slightly thinner as they stretch,= especially in the earlier years. So, for the string to produce= the same pitch, the string tension required would be ever so= slightly less over time. This would have a very slight= mitigating effect on the thought puzzle proposed above. But= nowhere near enough to explain 100 years of flatness, methinks.= And ven if the string is stretching, you would still be adding= linear length to the coil every time. I believe, in fact, that about a 30 annual correction, or more,= would be very common. Think about your own real-world,= real-piano experience. Visualize pulling your tuning hammer= through a 30 degree arc, i.e., 1/3 of a quarter turn. That's= still a pretty darned small once-a-year adjustment. So, I think= my estimates here have been very, very conservative. Anyway, at 30 degrees the piano would have to have a total of 8+= full coils on every pin if the pin never turned backward. Your turn or, as we used to say in Viet Nam .... I n c o m i n g= ! ! ! Alan Barnard Hunkered in the Bunker in Salem, MO ---------------------- multipart/alternative attachment An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: https://www.moypiano.com/ptg/pianotech.php/attachments/e1/fb/95/bc/attachment.htm ---------------------- multipart/alternative attachment--
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