Story and Clark not tuned for 30 years!!

[Avery]

At 11:28 PM 7/22/2006, you wrote:
>Avery,
>
>Thank you so much for your excellent advice.

You're welcome.

>You were right in your guess that I tune aurally. I don't own an ETD 
>and don't plan to get one until after I pass my aural exam. Then 
>probably, I might reward myself with one.
>
> From the sounds of it, I wonder if I don't give my customers enough 
> warning about the possibility of breaking a string. Do you have 
> them sign something before you start that they agree to pay for a 
> broken string and that it wouldn't be your fault if one did break?

I've never found that to be necessary.

>Or do you just tell them before you start?

Yes.

>Sam

Avery

>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: <mailto:avery1 at houston.rr.com>Avery
>To: <mailto:pianotech at ptg.org>Pianotech List
>Sent: Saturday, July 22, 2006 9:34 AM
>Subject: Re: Story and Clark not tuned for 30 years!!
>
>Hi Sam,
>
>I'm going to go ahead and post my thoughts on this before the thread 
>gets too old. Because you indicate you're pretty new at this, I'm 
>going to go into some detail and hope that you, and maybe some 
>others, will find something that will be useful somewhere along the 
>way. Warning: It's kind of long!
>
>At 09:12 PM 7/21/2006, you wrote:
>>Hello all,
>>
>>The other day, I tuned an old Story and Clark upright. When I 
>>opened it, I found the business card of the last tech who tuned it. 
>>It was dated 07/26/1976, almost exactly 30 years ago.
>>
>>Norm Larson of South Haven, Minnesota, are you still around?
>>
>>A gave it a quick inspection, and it appeared to be in decent 
>>shape. I vacuumed it out for the customer. There didn't appear to 
>>be any rust on the tuning pins or the strings. Most of the hammers 
>>didn't have any grooves, and those that did were very slight. The 
>>soundboard didn't have any cracks.
>>
>>I didn't dare raise it to pitch because it had been so long since 
>>it was tuned.
>
>First, let me say that I normally will not tune a piano "to itself" 
>unless there's some structural reason not to (very loose pins, very 
>rusty strings, evidence of previous string breakage, etc.). With 
>appropriate warnings to the customer about the possibility of string 
>breakage & their agreement to pay the extra charges involved in 
>bringing a neglected instrument up to pitch, of course. Your 
>customer might not be a piano player/musician but he might have 
>friends who are. I don't want some good musician friend coming over 
>to play the "just tuned" piano and after hearing it, says, "I 
>thought you just had this piano tuned!?" There goes my reputation 
>with that musician!
>
>Also, if there are children learning to play, it's important for a 
>piano to be up to pitch. Their ears are being trained as well as 
>their fingers!
>
>On the rare occasion that I've tuned a piano to itself, here's the 
>basic process I used for over 25 years before I started using an ETD.
>
>The low bass strings on a piano can only be a little flat before 
>they start sounding very "tubby", so since the bass is usually not 
>as flat as the middle and treble, I would usually start with low A 
>(A0) and tune the A's up to A4 and use that as my starting pitch. 
>You might also want to tune the higher A's just to get an idea if 
>the treble is appreciably flatter than the middle and lower sections.
>
>Tune a very quick temperament and do your octaves and unisons from 
>there. One warning. Using this method (or any other, for that 
>matter), it's still likely the upper third or so of the instrument 
>is going to be flat enough to still need two passes even if you're 
>only tuning it to itself.
>
>On a normal pitch raise, pulling sharp, if the piano was severely 
>flat as well as old, after setting the temperament, I might just 
>tune all the F's, then all the F#'s, etc. (I used an F to F 
>temperament.) My thoughts on this were that I was spreading out the 
>tension change more evenly on the soundboard and plate. I don't know 
>if that's really true or not, but that was why "I" did it that way.
>
>Then go back and pull in the unisons. I'd usually start with the 
>bottom temperament note and go up. Then go down from the temperament 
>tuning the bass. Don't worry about getting a clean unison. They're 
>going to change anyway. Actually, I'd usually even pull the unisons 
>in a little sharp because I knew the middle string had already 
>dropped some. Just pull in the unisons as fast as you can go. The 
>point here is not wasting time trying to get really clean unisons 
>because on a severe pitch raise, they're going to change! They're 
>going to change some in other scenarios also, but that's a 'nuther story! :-)
>
>When I'm doing a big pitch raise on an old instrument, if more than 
>one string in the middle broke, then I'd back off and tune it low. 
>If none broke until the high treble, I'd just go ahead and let them 
>break and then replace them. I'd also inform the customer that this 
>is what I'd be doing.
>
>I'm going to assume that you tune aurally since you didn't mention 
>how many cents flat the instrument was.
>If an instrument that age is severely flat, like 75-100 cents or 
>more, and I wanted to be cautious, I might not pull it sharp the 
>first time. Just pull it up to your fork, set a very quick 
>temperament (1-2 min.) and go. It's going to change anyway! That way 
>you can get a good idea of how the pins feel and how the strings 
>feel as they're being stretched. You'll probably eventually run into 
>an instrument where the strings feel like they've have no more 
>stretch in them and if you continue, they're going to break. Some 
>usually will. In a case like that, I'll inform the customer of the 
>situation, back off the pitch some and then tune it to itself. You 
>really have no choice, except for a restringing.
>
>>I just tuned it to itself. It was the most horribly out of tune 
>>piano I have tuned in my short career.
>
>Because of what you said here, if you don't already, let me advise 
>you to get at least a small roll of all the plain wire sizes and all 
>the tools needed to replace broken strings! I made that mistake on 
>my first tuning for pay! Needless to say, after I finally found 
>someone to come in and replace the string for me, I didn't make any 
>money on that tuning!
>
>In a case like your's, the first thing I would do is to check some 
>of the pins on the worst notes to make sure the "horrible 
>out-of-tuneness" was not caused by loose tuning pins. But because of 
>what you mention below, it doesn't sound like it was in this case.
>
>>When I was over, it still sounded terrible to me, but the customer 
>>was thrilled. He said it was the best he ever heard it sound (he's 
>>not a piano player). I was honest and didn't pretend that I was 
>>happy with how it sounded. I told him that it would take several 
>>tunings to make it sound good. He's having me back in six months to 
>>give it another tuning.
>
>I agree with Bob and others on this. Six months is too long. Even 
>tuning it to itself, you probably had a lot of strings that were too 
>flat to stay with only one tuning. That's probably why it still 
>didn't sound good to you. I'd have gone for 1-3 months maximum.
>
>After a large pitch raise (pulling sharp and going over it 2+ 
>times), I try to get the customer to have it retuned in at LEAST 1-3 
>months! One month is best. Then again in app. 6 months.
>
>>The pins seemed to twist before they moved, making the instrument 
>>very hard to tune. When I moved my tuning hammer, the pitch would 
>>go up, then go down when I released it.
>
>If the pins are tight in the block, this would be a fairly normal 
>thing. One can almost always hear the pitch change before you can 
>feel the pin inside the block! No matter what the pitch does though, 
>the pin MUST move inside the block!
>
>>I ended up very carefully applying constant pressure to the tuning 
>>hammer until I felt the tuning pin turn a little. It worked for me, 
>>though it took a long time. As far as hammer technique goes, was 
>>that something you would have done?
>
>That's basically correct and everyone goes through having to learn 
>to deal with that to set the strings and pins. Some use a smooth 
>pull method like you said you did, some use a "jerk" type of method 
>and still others use an impact hammer.
>
>One problem you're going to have now though, after doing the "tune 
>it where it was" tuning, is ever getting him to agree to the extra 
>expense of getting the instrument up to normal pitch. About the only 
>way you might could get him to do that now, is if there are children 
>taking lessons, as I said above. Also, if it ever needs to be played 
>with any other instrument besides a stringed one, it's not going to 
>be possible.
>
>>Also, the piano had a sticker that boasted a 50 year guarantee on 
>>the sound board. How the heck could Story and Clark make a 50 year 
>>guarantee on the sound board? They'd have no idea what conditions 
>>the thing would be kept in. What did they make the thing out of? 2" 
>>thick plywood?
>
>I believe Ron N. answered this one very eloquently! Diplomatically, also! :-D
>
>This is just a way that worked well for me for many years. YMMV.
>
>Now on a pitch raise, I use my SAT III and start at the bottom and 
>go up, unisons as I go. Others do it differently.
>
>>Sam Choy
>
>Avery Todd
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