If any Acutuner users have a chance to see Tunelab at work, some of the problem with lights might be clear. Tunelab has a graph as one of its visual readouts, and it picks up all the extraneous noises and shows them as increased peaks on the graph. there are often two, three, or even more distinct sounds graphed on a single string. It becomes more and more pronounced in the last half octave. I've been able to display to customers the reason their Lester Spinets sounded quite less than Steinway with the program, and they universally acknowledge the evidence presented by that graph. les bartlett _____ From: pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf Of Robert Finley Sent: Saturday, June 03, 2006 5:13 PM To: Pianotech List Subject: Re: A First Tuning Thank you for the advice Avery. I do in fact tune unisons at the top by playing the key rapidly and listening for the pure, bell-like sound. It becomes increasingly difficult to hear this as I approach C8 though, and to make sure I am on track I have to pluck the three strings with my fingernail to hear if they are close. The problem still seems to be getting the unisons to stay in tune after the tuning is complete, so that some of them don't go out several weeks or days after. When you set the tuning pin I thought you had to bring the pitch slightly higher by a few beats per second and then bring it down into tune by turning the tuning lever, and it is difficult or impossible to hear any beats when the notes are as high as this. The movement of the tuning lever required to make any change in the beats in the high treble is so minute anyway, and I don't know how anyone can move it with such precision. I also noticed the phenomenon you mentioned about the Accutuner when the lights start out fixed or moving slowly on the initial attack and then move rapidly afterwards. I don't know why this is either. It seems to happen on the highest notes. Maybe it's some strange vibrational mode in the shorter strings that causes a shift in the frequency, or perhaps it has something to do with false beats. Robert ----- Original Message ----- From: HYPERLINK "mailto:avery1 at houston.rr.com"Avery To: HYPERLINK "mailto:pianotech at ptg.org"Pianotech List Sent: Saturday, June 03, 2006 5:36 PM Subject: Re: A First Tuning Robert, I almost posted this privately, but there are so many "newbies" on the list right now, I thought maybe this might help someone else, so I'm "opening" myself up! :-) Something I was told many, many years ago at a convention about the unison thing in the high treble, is to listen for a "bell" type of sound while playing the note fairly quickly, repeatedly, while manipulating the string. Don't even try to hear the beats. Just listen for that clear, bell sound to come in and then leave it! High unisons sometimes have some weird sound characteristics, so for most situations, that's very adequate. I tuned aurally for app. 25+ yrs. but I've noticed since I got an SAT III that in the high treble, the lights will react one way on the initial attack, but immediately after, they will move drastically one way or the other. BTW, I've never understood why that is. Anyone have an answer? When I was trained as a CTE, I was told to read the machine on the initial attack of the hammer. Not on a sustained sound. So that's what I still do on a tuning. I've tuned for a lot of big-name artists here at the university and "downtown" and so far (knock on wood) :-D, I've never had a problem. Actually, the same type of "bell" sound on the attack can also be useful for octaves. I was a voice major in college and also did a lot of accompanying, so I have a pretty good ear. I used the bell thing even back then but in a critically important situation especially, I would run a 3-4 octave arpeggio to make sure the top note didn't sound flat to me as a musician! And IMO, that's the most important thing. One's ear! Hopefully, Conrad's flame suit won't be needed! :-D Avery Todd University of Houston At 02:20 PM 6/3/2006, you wrote: Hello Michelle. I am at a similar stage to yourself. I also have the Randy Potter course, and have tuned pianos that usually take about 2 hours to complete. I hope my speed will increase with practice. I have an Accutuner and found this helpful to check the accuracy of my tuning when I do some of it by ear. I now find that I am getting to the stage where the lights on the Accutuner move slowly or are fixed on some of the notes in the temperament, so I guess that shows that my accuracy is improving, and soon, hopefully, I will be able to tune entirely by ear. I also found it helpful to tune the temperament using the Accutuner and listen to the beat rates of the various intervals This helped me to adjust them by ear because I know what the beat rates should sound like and how they should gradually get faster going up the keyboard. The hardest thing I find so far is to tune the octaves and unisons in the highest part of the treble because the sound dies away so quickly and it is difficult to detect any ripple in order to compare beat rates. I have tried various tests that have been suggested but it's still difficult to do. Another challenge is getting the unisons in the treble to stay in tune. I apply firm test blows to equalize the string tension and set the pins by tuning slightly higher and bringing it down to zero beat, but they still tend to go out. I guess it requires a lot of patience, perseverance and practice. Robert Finley ----- Original Message ----- From: HYPERLINK "mailto:michelle at cdaustin.com"Michelle Smith To: HYPERLINK "mailto:pianotech at ptg.org"'Pianotech List' Sent: Friday, June 02, 2006 11:20 PM Subject: RE: A First Tuning Hi Marshall. Im going to answer this on the list because a couple of people have asked. All of you seasoned tuners out there can commence cringing at my lack of experience. I decided to enter this field in January of this year, purchased the Randy Potter course, read ever darned word of the thing(!), and purchased a Cybertuner. Ive practiced extensively on my baby grand and two clunkers, have tuned the pianos of several family/friends, and have now tuned 2 customer pianos. While I do depend on my ETD very much, I take the time to check my intervals in the temperament area before moving on with the tuner. I dont feel quite ready to tune a customer piano completely by ear. As far as time is concerned, it takes me 2 to 2.5 hours if I have to do a pitch raise. Ive also gotten involved with my local chapter, attended an Associate Seminar (I highly recommend one of these), and have a casual arrangement with a local rebuilder where I can visit/do work for free. (Aka slave labor.) If my husband were sitting here, he would tell you Im obsessed. A tuner friend told me with my musicians ear and obsessive tendencies, I should do just fine in this business. Ha Ha Ha! Have a wonderful weekend. Michelle Smith Bastrop, Texas _____ From: pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [HYPERLINK "mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org" mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf Of pianotune05 Sent: Friday, June 02, 2006 9:48 PM To: Pianotech List Subject: Re: A First Tuning Hi MIchelle, As a new tech myself, I'm curious. How long did it take you to tune this piano? How many tunings did you do before you first paid one? I'm just curious to see how others are doing? Marshall -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. 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