I am sorry I left this out of my first e-mail.I am newbe and am wanting to learn this craft. I will attend my first Guild meeting tonite and I want to tell everyone on the list that I am amazed at the cooperation and helpI have recieved. I have been involve with several groups in my lifetime but I firmly believe this is the first group I have ever dealt with that has no peronal axes to grind jus people helping people. I am proud to be a member of this group! Charlie PS if you are in Tampa or GA come by and the beer is on me.----- Original Message -----
From: Andrew and Rebeca Anderson
To: Alan Barnard ; Pianotech List
Sent: Sunday, March 12, 2006 11:13 PM
Subject: Re: ohoh
Mr. Potter,
I've worked with a 490ST before and its templates are approximations that need to be aurally checked and corrected to better fit the beast in front of you.
If you are not getting a good pattern on the high treble, you may actually be tuning too high as described by Alan. The Peterson doesn't have a C8 so you would augment C7 by the difference between B7 and A#7 (you can find that in the manual tables in the back). This would get C8 stretched consistently to the template you chose. The templates themselves are approximations of vaguely defined pianos and will rarely (never) fit perfectly to any piano actually in front of you. Test your intervals and then use the +/- buttons to adjust (wish that was a rotary knob). I eventually went to the Veritune VT100 to help me with my pitch corrections and tuning test practice.
The Peterson is a fast simple analog tuner that does not listen to and analyze the piano you're tuning. It just rapidly gives you interference patterns. If you want to know how to use it to achieve high-quality tunings go to the PTG.ORG bookstore and order "On Pitch". Another book to get is "Different Strokes" which is about using your tuning hammer effectively.
There are more possible reason for broken strings: >wrong gage<, too rough a hammer technique for the extreme treble, badly corroded capo/v-bar, etc. Did the new string render readily? Are you rapidly overshooting pitch either way in the high treble?
Good luck,
Andrew Anderson
At 08:34 PM 3/12/2006, you wrote:
Uhhhh .... that machine is, uh, how shall I say it ... not the right tool for the task at hand and very.
I mean no disrespect here, but you've given us very little info about yourself: Do you understand tempered tuning? Inharmonicity? And that sort of thing? Or are you tuning, for example, A's at 27.5, 55, 110, 220, 440, 880, 1760, and 3520 Hz (for example)?
Try plucking C8 while playing C7, etc., without the machine. You may do better.
Where do you live?
Alan Barnard
Salem, MO
-----Original Message-----
From: Charlie Potter
Sent: Mar 12, 2006 7:46 PM
To: Alan Barnard , Pianotech List
Subject: Re: ohoh
Hi Allen Thanks for the info. My hearing probably isnt that good anymore but I use a peterson 490st to assist my ears.I am finding it hard to use the peterson on the very low or high octave.I know the string is correct.I will try your advive Monday.Thanks again,Charlie
----- Original Message -----
From: Alan Barnard
To: Pianotech List
Sent: Sunday, March 12, 2006 1:31 PM
Subject: Re: ohoh
Not without more information ... but unless the string was replaced with wire that is too heavy (can't reach pitch without breaking) then you are definitely tuning it sharp. Not just a little sharp but wayyyy sharp.
Are you tuning by ear or with an electronic device?
Do your treble octaves sound right to you up to the last one?
One "trick" to better hear treble tuning is to press the sustain pedal and slowly play a two-octave, arppegiated chord leading up to the top note of the chord--the note you are checking--but pausing a couple of seconds before playing that last note, i.e., hearing it in your mind first then sounding it to see if it is sharp are flat or where your head said it should be.
It is possible, especially at the extreme ends of the piano, to have notes off by a fourth or fifth so they still sound okay (sort of) but not at the octave.
For example, your high C may actually be, let's say, an augmented 4th above C, so it sounds lousy but the customer in his ear wants to hear it pulled up to a perfect 5th. You try it and poingggggg.
When in doubt, turn those high note pins down, down, down, until you are clearly flat of the octave, then slowly tune it up. Don't keep cranking upwards if you are not sure where the string pitch is.
Often, it is MUCH easier to hear the true pitch of high strings with a finger or thumb nail instead of wanging them with the hammer. It eliminates a lot of the "woody" sound of the hammer and heightens the fundamental of the string.
You mentioned being "of a certain age" (it's a big club) and I'm wondering how your hearing is at that end of the piano. If you don't have an ETD but do have hearing loss at higher frequencies, you may need to bite the bullet and buy one. For what it's worth, I like Tunlab on my PocketPC because it is more affordable than others, has everything I need, and has a built in spectrum analyzer that REALLY helps you see what's going on in those top octaves.
Hope it helps.
Alan Barnard
Salem, MO
-----Original Message-----
From: Charlie Potter
Sent: Mar 12, 2006 11:03 AM
To: Pianotech List
Subject: ohoh
I am a newbe-wanabee and an old man. I am learning to tune pianos. I have done 1 ok. On the second a Kawai I have broken the last string c88 2 times because the owner says it isnt pitched high enough.Could anyone tell me what I am doing wrong,Charlie
Salem, Missouri
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