Hi All: Early this year I was at the Randy Potter Seminar and both Randy and Ward Guthrie spoke of using what they called ' musician ear plugs". They are made for your ears specifically and have inserts that are decibel rated. I believe 15 -20 db. They both indicated ( forgive me if I'm wrong Randy and Ward ) that they wished they started using these much earlier in their tuning career. You can do a google search for ' Westone earplugs'. ps....Randy and Ward.......I hope its OK that I used your names and didnt mis-speak. Dave McKibben ----- Original Message ----- From: pianotune05 To: Pianotech List Sent: 3/18/2006 9:09:06 PM Subject: Re: MY ETD IS MADE BY SIEMENS-- IT'S CALLED A HEARING AID Hi John and other ear plug users, I don' t use ear plugs, but to be honest, I've never heard of a piano tech using them until I met you guys. How can one hear when their ears are plugged? I remember having a bad cold and all I could hear was the inside of my head, or what I thought was the inside of my head. If I were to stick m finger in my ear, it would block a lot of sound. So how do ear plugs benefit us? Marshall ----- Original Message ----- From: John Ross To: Pianotech List Sent: Saturday, March 18, 2006 11:44 AM Subject: Re: MY ETD IS MADE BY SIEMENS-- IT'S CALLED A HEARING AID Hi Ron, Just a comment re ear plugs. You can still hear, they just cut the sound down by varying amounts, depending on the model/brand you have. The ones I use, cut the sound down by 12db. At that level, they cut down some of the noisy sounds around, and take the level down, in the piano to a safe level. Think small practise room, with a grand. When you do those setting the pin type strikings, the noise level, being cumulative during a day, can damage your hearing. I have tinnitus, and I wonder if I would have had it, if I had started using the plugs earlier. John M. Ross Windsor, Nova Scotia, Canada jrpiano at win.eastlink.ca ----- Original Message ----- From: RON MAY, RPT To: tune4u at earthlink.net ; Pianotech List Sent: Saturday, March 18, 2006 9:27 AM Subject: Re: MY ETD IS MADE BY SIEMENS-- IT'S CALLED A HEARING AID Wow! Why are you ETD ers so touchy. I don't think I said one thing against tuners that use ETD's other than my experience with the old lady. Have you gotten so touchy about the mere mention of aural tuning you take it as an attack. The fact is that I have thought many times about investing in one. It would be especially nice as you say in noisy situations and I guess I can see that it probably could be a help in pitch raise and if you prefer to use them that is fine. I also know and have a number of friends that use them and are excellent "RPT" tuners. I will also admit to you that about the only thing I know about an ETD other than Siemens of course, is that it has a screen. I know that you are now going to say I should go check them out. Folks, I am 69 years old as of last week and going on 22. If I bought one of those things, my teacher, Dr. William Braid White would do a back flip in his grave.I have cut my work load down to three pianos a day. I retired when I quit working on Saturday. I also wouldn't think about tuning a piano before 10am or after 4 pm. I can tune a piano, usually in an hour to an hour and a half. I take in one action at a time and am backed up on action work for about 3 months--yeh! I do it because I like to do it and I do it when I want to. Don't be so bloomin touchy ETDers. I have got one question. How do you hear the piano when you have plugs in your ears? On page 57 under Tuning in the Steinway Technical service guide. ( you ought to get one) I quote: "Steinway & Sons stresses the importance of aural tuning. Developing piano tone is a mechanical and musical art. Solid aural tuning exercises and develops the musical ear, giving the technician a greater ability to master the methods used in tone building." You don't need to holler and get upset with me----Holler at Mr. Steinway. Some day I think I will probably check the ETDs out if for no other reason but curiosity. There is maybe one thing you ETDers can help me with. Just about every week or two I get a call from someone in the area who has just had their piano tuned and are very unhappy with the extreme last octave in the bass. This isn't just one tuner that I run into. Invariably the last octave is so far sharp it is dissonant. Any kid with a years lessons would hear it. There is no way any tuner has listened to this. Is there something about ETDs that don't hear that last octave? Hang loose people. There are plenty pianos out there for all of us. Ron ----- Original Message ----- From: Alan Barnard To: Pianotech List Sent: Saturday, March 18, 2006 1:00 AM Subject: RE: MY ETD IS MADE BY SIEMENS-- IT'S CALLED A HEARING AID I'm NOT trying to pick a fight here, but some of these posts sound kind of "aurallier than thou," to me, and I thought (and hoped) we'd gotten past that years ago. I personnally believe in being proficient in both aural and ETD tuning. But people who do use ETDs tend to use them most of the time. There is a reason for that: it's easier and for many operations, like one-pass pitch raises, it is faster and more accurate for most tuners. Also, in noisy environments you just can't beat 'em. While it is unquestionably true that the ear hears many things that machines do not (voicing and unwanted noise as prime examples), it is equally true that the machine has capabilities that the ear does not, e.g., string diagnostics, strength of partials (an aid to voicing), spectrum analysis of difficult unisons (high treble, especially), etc. So, ears? ETDs? I use both. I am amazed at the ability of so many outstanding aural-only tuners, and I am also cognizant that some of the finest concert performance tuners are, unabashedly, ETD tuners. The late, great George Defebaugh said (with reference to ETDs): "If you live long enough, every tuner will need these someday." Okay, and/or or maybe hearing aids. Another point: Some types of hearing loss can be remarkably compensated by hearing aids. Others cannot. Depends on the pathology and neurology involved, I suppose. Yet another point: I certainly have encountered pianos which were last tuned by very experienced aural tuners who were obviously just guessing at the extremes of the piano, especially the treble. If I get to that point, I will be thrilled to whip out the old Pocket PC, punch up Tunelab, and get that high treble dead on. There is no shame, nor is there any particular nobility, in being either an ETD tuner or an aural tuner, and there is real advantage to being both, IMH?O. Do we agree that ALL that really counts are results, i.e., sweetly tuned pianos, happy customers, and a jingle in the tuner's pocket? Alan Barnard Salem, Missouri P.S. And yes, by all means, get your hearing checked and protect what you have! ----- Original Message ----- From: RON MAY, RPT To: joegarrett at earthlink.net;Pianotech List Sent: 03/17/2006 10:52:08 PM Subject: MY ETD IS MADE BY SIEMENS-- IT'S CALLED A HEARING AID Hi Techs Hopefully I can help everyone or someone a bit. I received my second hearing aid about 6 months ago. I am a 69 year old Aural tuner who sees absolutely no benefit in ever owning an Tunlab or whatever. I am a concert tuner and to this day will put my tuning up against any of you. Among my customers are 4 phd's in piano performance, one master in piano performance, a large number of piano teachers etc.etc.etc. Oh Yeah---I am an rpt. I can remember my concerns about getting a hearing aid. I wondered what my customers would think, "a piano tuner with a hearing aid" sure. The fact is that over the past 8 years I have been wearing and aid. I have never had one person ever even question it. I have discussed it with people, usually with customers who also had aids and wanted to know what kind I had and why I liked them. I, like everyone else that wears an aid never realized what I was missing until I received my first one. For what it is worth, I can still do a good job tuning a piano without the aids but they are such a great assistance I hate to be without them. There were certain pianos that I always noticed were harder for me to hear the beats in than others. The absolute worst for me was a 50s vintage Acrosonic. It was my ear nose and throat physician that recommended originally that I get my hearing checked. The Audiologist worked within the same office as the physician. The test showed some loss over all but particularly nerve damage in some of the higher frequencies. The audiologist suggested that I try and aid. Most of the Audiologist have a free 30 day+ trial. The very first piano I happened upon wearing my first aid was a 50s Acrosonic. When I started to set the first 5th I tweaked up the volume a little and "wow" those beats jumped out of that piano like I couldn't believe. It didn't take me long to become a true believer. I would not recommend any tuner getting the newer digital, automatic volume control aids. I have known other tuners that had them and had problems. I like the ability to adjust the volume as needed for the particular situation. There are a lot of hidden benefits to wearing especially two aids. One is when I go to the movies and the sound system is so loud that everyone that attends needs new hearing aids when they leave. I just turn my aids off and they act as ear plugs. They also come in handy when your wife is upset with you. I would bet that over half of the piano technicians have at least some hearing loss. I would urge all of you to get your hearing checked every year and don't be afraid to give an aid a try. Believe me, your friends and especially your customers won't care. If there piano sounds great when you are ready to leave, they won't care if you wear ear muffs. A couple of signs for you that are signals that you have a loss: If you have to raise the volume on the TV and the wife complains about it. If you don't understand what your wife says from the kitchen while you are watching TV If you keep having to ask people to repeat what they said. and last but not least---If the beats don't jump out of your Acrosonic. With my aids, I hear things that many tuners don't. Recently I got called out on a two year old Samick grand. The owner, a sweet old lady, had been complaining about the piano to the past two ETD tuners as well as the piano store. They told here that there was nothing wrong with the piano that what she was hearing was because of her hearing aids. She also had two aids. The piano had been tuned within two weeks of my arrival and twice over the month.. The tuning was uneven but my tuning was going fine until I started into the bass. As I passed into the bass break I noticed this terrible sound. The strings sounded more like a guitar. When I checked the bearing on the bass bridge, the first five notes you could stick paper between the bridge and the strings. There was a minus .020 down bearing on the rear and +.005 on about 1/8 inch of the front of the bridge. The piano was sent back to the factory and the lady is thrilled with her new piano. For God Sake---go get your ears checked people.Your ETDs don't hear this stuff. Half of you can't hear and don't know it. Piano tuners are probably among the absolutely worst hearing people in the world. Ron May ----- Original Message ----- From: Joseph Garrett To: pianotech Sent: Monday, March 13, 2006 2:22 PM Subject: Hearing Exam - was OhOh "You mentioned being "of a certain age" (it's a big club) and I'm wondering how your hearing is at that end of the piano. If you don't have an ETD but do have hearing loss at higher frequencies, you may need to bite the bullet and buy one. For what it's worth, I like Tunlab on my PocketPC because it is more affordable than others, has everything I need, and has a built in spectrum analyzer that REALLY helps you see what's going on in those top octaves." Why is it so darned hard to go to the Audiologist and get your ears checked?!!! We all need to do that, at least, every other year. In our case, once a year is more logical. Sheesh! (And guys are worse than the ladies. Must be a "guy thing" or is it just plain ego getting in the way of logic? Yeah, I'm back.<G> Been taking a sabbatical from youse guys/gals. (I can take only so much, ya know.<G>) Regards, Joe Garrett, R.P.T. 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