As long as the inharmonicity of the 6:4 is not vastly different from the 3:2, that's probably generally OK. But the M6-M10 is really easy to listen to. You can always change the reference note to make the beats slower. And, you're listening to for just a slight difference in beat speeds. In the example of G#2-F3 and G#2-C4, let's say G#2-F3 beats at 6 bps. You'd want to have G#2-C4 just slightly slower. If that beats 5 bps, then it's too narrow. Assuming you can hear the 1/2 bps difference between chromatic M3s and M6s, it's no problem to hear the difference in the M6-M10. My P4s are always around 1 bps in the F3-F4 area, but since I tend to pure P5s, the P4s are a tad more than 1 bps. They're always closer to 1 bps than 2 bps. They obviously increase in the upper midrange, but you can't really hear them much past C5, so beyond C5, particularly in a musical context. So, beyond the midrange. you are more concerned about octaves. As you say, to each his own, but I find that tuning 2:1 octaves up from the midrange leads to an intolerably flat sounding treble. To overcome this tendency, one can tune with slightly expanded double octaves and slightly contracted octave-fifths within the DO. E.g., make F3-F5 beat the same as A#3-F5. Continue that up all the way, and down all the way. This leads to a well-balanced tuning, and it sounds great. But it all begins with the proper foundation; i.e., the bearing or temperament. -- JF On Thu, Nov 6, 2008 at 6:11 AM, Jeff Deutschle <oaronshoulder at gmail.com>wrote: > John: > > Yes I know the M6-M10 test. Thank you. I don't find it very useful because, > as you say, the 3:2 5th beats so slow. I do make use of the m3-M3 6:4 5th > test when setting the temperament though. I don't see a problem with > listening to 6:4 5ths, as long as they are listened to consistently. > Interesting that you dislike "those nasty narrow P5s and P19s in the > treble." I dislike the busy 4ths when the 5ths are not narrow enough! To > each his own. > > I wish I knew Latin like Don. Then instead of saying "Non calor sed umor > est qui nobis incommodat", I would know how to say "It's not the beats, it's > the humility." :-) > > > On Wed, Nov 5, 2008 at 10:34 PM, John Formsma <formsma at gmail.com> wrote: > >> Jeff, >> There are tests to help determine which partials you are hearing. I'm >> assuming you probably know them. The most helpful one for me (for the 3:2 >> partials) is the M6-M10. Say you're tuning F3-C5. You'd play those two >> notes with G#2. And you can also "ghost" it to help the ear focus on the >> correct partials. >> >> I'd have to be at a piano to know whether I listen inadvertently to 6:4 >> partials. I know I sometimes hear them if they're prominent, but constant >> ear training helps your focus so you can avoid getting off track by tuning >> with the 6:4 partials. >> >> In my tunings, the P5s at the 3:2 level don't get faster in either the >> bass or treble. In fact, they hardly beat at all. But I tend toward a pure >> 5ths tuning. Not quite, but close. My tunings are somewhat expanded >> compared to some, but that helps eliminate those nasty narrow P5s and P19s >> in the treble. >> >> -- >> JF >> >> >> On Wed, Nov 5, 2008 at 11:11 AM, Jeff Deutschle <oaronshoulder at gmail.com>wrote: >> >>> List: >>> >>> I have read threads where someone mentions that the beat speed of 5ths >>> should decrease in the treble and that 5ths even become wide of just >>> intonation. I have been trying to figure out how this could be, both >>> theoretically and in practice. >>> >>> Theoretically, it seems that this could only occur if each octave was >>> tuned more than 2 cents wider than the octave below it. In practice, my 5ths >>> beat rate increases, not decreases, in the treble. If I try to stretch the >>> octaves so that they beat slower, this results in unbearably busy octaves >>> and 4ths. >>> >>> The only thing I can figure out is that the threads are referring to 3:2 >>> 5ths and I am listening to 6:4 5ths (which I believe I am). I imagine when >>> taking into account inharmonicity that a 4:2 or 6:3 octave could result in >>> the 3:2 5ths beating slower going up the treble while the 6:4 5ths beat >>> faster. But then what about going down into the bass? Wouldn't the 3:2 5ths >>> beat faster going down into the bass? That is hard for me to believe. >>> >>> So, can anyone one help me to understand this? I feel like there is a >>> piece missing in this puzzle. >>> >>> -- >>> Regards, >>> Jeff Deutschle >>> >>> Please address replies to the List. Do not E-mail me privately. Thank >>> You. >>> >>> >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://ptg.org/pipermail/pianotech_ptg.org/attachments/20081106/f1bbd595/attachment-0001.html
This PTG archive page provided courtesy of Moy Piano Service, LLC