Jeff, My first thought is that you shouldn't develop an extensive tuning theory on scale-challenged pianos. Yes, we have to do them, and try to make them sound OK. But while we must occasionally go there for a visit, it's not a place where we want to stay long. :-) My advice would be to develop your ears to hear the 3:2 partials on the P5. Let the 6:4 partials fall where they may. If you must modify the P5 at the 3:2 level because of the 6:4 partials, it's all something we should be able to do, and accommodate the rest of the tuning to it.. -- JF On Thu, Nov 6, 2008 at 9:20 AM, Jeff Deutschle <oaronshoulder at gmail.com>wrote: > John: > > I am enjoying this discussion a great deal. > > On shorter pianos (which is about all I tune...) I avoid using the wound > strings for tests when I can help it. The partials are often wavery. This is > another reason that I prefer the 6:4 test. On pianos like this the iH of the > 6:4 5th *is *vastly different than the 3:2 5th. But the iH of the 6:4 5th > is closer to the other tuning intervals than the iH of the 3:2 5th. (It > might be more correct to say "the difference in iH".) So, I find it is > easier to tune with the 6:4 5ths. In the lower part of the unwound tenor I > am sure that this can result in a wide 3:2 5th and a narrow 6:4 5ths, but > that is often the best compromise. > > Now back to my original question. You said that your 3:2 5ths beat at the > same speed across the entire keyboard but that your 4ths increase in beat > speed toward the treble, and that you use a wide octave. I don't think the > cause of this phenomena is widely understood. It seems that it all depends > on the octave stretch and the iH. The more octave stretch and iH, the more > this phenomena will occur, I suppose even to the point where 5ths can become > wide in the treble while the 4ths continue to beat faster. But when > listening to 6:4 5ths, it may not be noticeable what the beat rate of the > 3:2 5ths are doing. > > Can anyone confirm this? > > On Thu, Nov 6, 2008 at 8:33 AM, John Formsma <formsma at gmail.com> wrote: > >> As long as the inharmonicity of the 6:4 is not vastly different from the >> 3:2, that's probably generally OK. But the M6-M10 is really easy to listen >> to. You can always change the reference note to make the beats slower. >> And, you're listening to for just a slight difference in beat speeds. >> In the example of G#2-F3 and G#2-C4, let's say G#2-F3 beats at 6 bps. >> You'd want to have G#2-C4 just slightly slower. If that beats 5 bps, then >> it's too narrow. Assuming you can hear the 1/2 bps difference between >> chromatic M3s and M6s, it's no problem to hear the difference in the M6-M10. >> >> My P4s are always around 1 bps in the F3-F4 area, but since I tend to pure >> P5s, the P4s are a tad more than 1 bps. They're always closer to 1 bps than >> 2 bps. They obviously increase in the upper midrange, but you can't really >> hear them much past C5, so beyond C5, particularly in a musical context. >> So, beyond the midrange. you are more concerned about octaves. >> >> As you say, to each his own, but I find that tuning 2:1 octaves up from >> the midrange leads to an intolerably flat sounding treble. To overcome this >> tendency, one can tune with slightly expanded double octaves and slightly >> contracted octave-fifths within the DO. E.g., make F3-F5 beat the same as >> A#3-F5. Continue that up all the way, and down all the way. This leads to >> a well-balanced tuning, and it sounds great. But it all begins with the >> proper foundation; i.e., the bearing or temperament. >> >> -- >> JF >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://ptg.org/pipermail/pianotech_ptg.org/attachments/20081107/e9c69540/attachment-0001.html
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