Thanks to everybody for your input on this. I think it might be my turn to clarify my post a little, too. When I was talking about making a second appointment, 2 weeks later, to do the "fine tuning" after a pitch raise, I was not saying that I was pulling the pitch up gradually over the 2 appointments. At the first appointment, I do as many pitch raises (passes with overpull) as it takes to get the piano up to A440 or even a little sharper, and consistent, by the time I walk out the door. The piano sits for 2 weeks and does whatever little pitch dance it's gonna do, before I come back and tune to A440 the way I would had the piano not needed a pitch correction first. One more clarification about this: >> (I said:) I know it's possible to raise the pitch & fine tuning in one visit. >> However, just because you CAN do it doesn't mean that you SHOULD >> do it. >> (Paul responded:) I personally disagree with this sentiment as a generalization. It's >> possible to raise the pitch and adequately tune the piano in one >> sitting if the >> raise is not ridiculously excessive. You're right, Terry, I was trying to make a differentiation between a one-visit pitch correction and tuning vs. the 2-visit approach I use (like I described above). Paul, I don't think you and I disagree at all - I know it's possible to raise the pitch and adequately tune in one sitting, but I was saying that just because it's possible doesn't mean it's the best thing to do. I feel this way not because it's somehow better for the piano to do it in two visits, but because it gets the message across to the customer more clearly that regular tuning is important, and if they neglect the piano it's gonna cost them, in both time (the need for 2 appointments) and money. I guess you could call it my Pavlovian Pitch Raise Policy :) Scott ------ Scott A. Helms, Registered Piano Technician 480-818-3871 www.helmsmusic.net > Hi Bill - Your questioning is so direct and polite, and being that > Paul is on vacation, I'll stick my neck out and throw some answers > your way. Please keep in mind that these answers/comments are are my > own, and do not necessarily reflect Paul's thinking in any way (if > they are bad, it's my fault, not Paul's!). > >> I know it's possible to raise the pitch & fine tuning in one visit. >> However, just because you CAN do it doesn't mean that you SHOULD >> do it. >> I personally disagree with this sentiment as a generalization. It's >> possible to raise the pitch and adequately tune the piano in one >> sitting if the >> raise is not ridiculously excessive. >> >> >> What's the ballpark -xx cents number you're talking about being >> "ridiculously excessive"? > > > I think the statement is only trying to distinguish between making > several appointments to slowly pull the piano up to standard pitch and > getting it up there in one sitting. I certainly agree with the > statement. > > The statement goes further and addresses tuning the same day after a > pitch raise. A five or ten cent pitch raise would certainly qualify > for "not ridiculously excessive". A 100+-cent pitch raise would likely > qualify for ridiculously excessive in anyone's book. Somewhere in > between lies a grey area. > >> Concert work often calls for the latter. Johnny's home piano is >> typical of the former. And if >> Johnny is any good, plan on coming back in a month or so to do a >> more than >> adequate tuning. Radically flat pianos won't really stabilize for >> several tunings. >> >> >> What negative cents numbers are "radical", that would need >> "several tunings"... over what period of time? >> >> >> Maybe one final question... could you provide a >> differentiation of "adequate" and "fine tune"... either in "cents" >> or some other quantitative answer (aka stability over time, or >> whatever) > > > Your question addresses the aforementioned grey area. I really can't > give you any definitive cents value either. You'll have to find that > on your own from your own experience. At the one end of the spectrum, > a concert pianist will likely not be happy with anyone's tuning a day > or two after a 25-cent pitch raise followed immediately with a tuning. > However, "Johnny", the beginner will likely be happy with his piano a > month after a 60-cents pitch raise followed by a tuning the same day. > > Some of this has to do with the piano itself. > > I don't worry about putting any absolute numbers on anything in this > arena. I simply tell the piano owner that we did a large pitch raise > and that the piano will not be as stable (tuning won't last as long) > as had the piano been tuned on a regular basis for the past few years. > I tell them that they may notice the piano going out of tune sooner > than it would have otherwise and they may wish to tune again earlier > than otherwise. And I just let it go at that. If the piano player was > skilled, I may state these ideas a bit more directly and say something > like "you will LIKELY notice the tuning wandering in the coming weeks > and you may wish to tune it again soon." But that's about as specific > as I would get - and I think as specific as anyone would want to get. > > Find a neglected piano that you have some sort of regular access to, > do a big pitch raise, and then monitor how the tuning deteriorates > over time. It's going to be a combination of the piano, it's > environment, the pianist, the time span, the pianist's ear, the > pianist's wallet, how big the pitch raise was, etc., etc. Too many > variables to nail it down much more than that. > > Hope this helps. Blame me if I steered you wrong..... :-0 > > Terry Farrell > > PS: And Paul - if you have anything REALLY nasty to say to me, please > send it privately! ;-) > > On Aug 25, 2009, at 1:33 PM, PAULREVENKOJONES at aol.com wrote: > >> Bill: >> >> I am on vacation right now and if I have time when I return I'll >> consider whether I have answers to your questions. Let me say now >> that I rarely put numbers to these things and have found it >> dangerous and unprofitable when giving advice. >> >> Also, there is no contradiction between what I said in GR and what I >> said in the post. I pull the piano all the way up (overpulled) on >> the first pass every time. It may take another stabilizing pitch >> pass before attempting any kind of decent tuning. Wherein do you see >> a conflict? >> >> Paul >> >> In a message dated 8/25/2009 10:59:32 A.M. Central Daylight Time, >> pianofritz50 at aol.com >> writes: >> Hi Paul, >> >> I very much appreciated our conversations during the Convention >> about this subject, and I think I remember you said that one should >> pitch raise to A440, rather than take the piano up slowly over a >> series of periodic tunings... but I'm a somewhat confused w/ your >> posting of the following vs the PTG Convention statement. >> >> I'm wondering if you could please clarify a few points indicated by >> the >>: >> >> I know it's possible to raise the pitch & fine tuning in one visit. >> However, just because you CAN do it doesn't mean that you SHOULD >> do it. >> I personally disagree with this sentiment as a generalization. It's >> possible to raise the pitch and adequately tune the piano in one >> sitting if the >> raise is not ridiculously excessive. >> >> >> What's the ballpark -xx cents number you're talking about being >> "ridiculously excessive"? >> >> It may be possible to raise the pitch >> and "fine tune" if the raise is within a narrow range. >> >> >> Ballpark -xx cents number for this "fine tune" situation? >> >> Concert work often calls for the latter. Johnny's home piano is >> typical of the former. And if >> Johnny is any good, plan on coming back in a month or so to do a >> more than >> adequate tuning. Radically flat pianos won't really stabilize for >> several tunings. >> >> >> What negative cents numbers are "radical", that would need >> "several tunings"... over what period of time? >> >> >> Maybe one final question... could you provide a >> differentiation of "adequate" and "fine tune"... either in "cents" >> or some other quantitative answer (aka stability over time, or >> whatever) >> >> Thank you very much... Bill Fritz, StLouis Chapter >> >> From: PAULREVENKOJONES at aol.com >> To: pianotech at ptg.org >> Subject: Re: [pianotech] i'll take a pass >> >> I know it's possible to raise the pitch & fine tuning in one visit. >> However, just because you CAN do it doesn't mean that you SHOULD >> do it. >> I personally disagree with this sentiment as a generalization. It's >> possible to raise the pitch and adequately tune the piano in one >> sitting if the >> >> raise is not ridiculously excessive. It may be possible to raise >> the pitch >> and "fine tune" if the raise is within a narrow range. Concert work >> often >> calls for the latter. Johnny's home piano is typical of the former. >> And if >> Johnny is any good, plan on coming back in a month or so to do a >> more than >> adequate tuning. Radically flat pianos won't really stabilize for >> several >> tunings. >> >> Paul >> > >
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