Hi Don: I've followed this thread through a lot of advice, most of it good. I think David's comments below are ones you should pay close heed to. Still, I don't think you have yet given us enough information to get the most targeted advice. What you should do next is based upon what exactly you have done already (what was the result of steaming to your ear. Exactly where in the hammer did you needle, how deep, how much, etc., and what results did you hear? How much filing did you do, what grits of paper?). As best you can describe, what is your skill set and level as a voicer? Are you new to this, or have a lot of experience? Do you usually have confidence that you can achieve the tonal results you are seeking? When you sit down at a piano and listen to it with the intent to analyze the voicing, are you able to get a clear sense of what you are hearing, where you want to go, and how you can get there with an applied protocol that gives good results usually?? David says it is his responsibility to communicate what he wants, and he is right; but it is not always that simple. Our customers often don't have the language to articulate what they want, even when they have a sensitive and perceptive ear. Nor do they have an idea of what is possible in terms of voicing. Your customer may or may not be able to say what he wants with precision. I like what David says about this being a partnership. That is a truly wonderful way to approach voicing with a customer - let's work together to give you a great sounding piano. They feel respected and listened to, and if you can deliver the goods, you have made a friend for life because they know they cannot get this from everybody. But you must show great care in what decisions you entrust to the customer. They should not be directing your voicing, they are not equipped to do so, but they can give you valuable feedback as you go along. I enjoy this kind of customer, because they are challenging. More than once I have followed the footsteps of one or more technicians. Sometimes they had difficulty because the piano made it hard for them. And the piano fought me too, but I broke through. If you win them over, they will sing your praises to other good pianists. Which is wonderful, if you want to do this kind of work. We need to be an interpreter some of the time. They cannot say exactly what they mean, so you have to be able to read between the lines. Ask leading questions. Listen, really listen to the piano and make your own evaluations. Trust your own ear - it's all you've got. Listen to your intuition, it may serve you more than you think. Good luck, and let us know how this works out. Will Truitt -----Original Message----- From: pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf Of David Love Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2009 9:53 AM To: pianotech at ptg.org Subject: Re: [pianotech] New hammers I wouldn't be so quick to say no. Of course, you should charge for all service calls and make sure that as you make suggestions to take the next step you outline the costs up front so there's no confusion. But dealing with difficult and exacting customers is part of the job. The best pianists are demanding and if you want to aim for a higher end customer you have to be willing to deal with that. It's quite possible that the Abel hammers on this piano are not delivering the kind of tone he wants. Since you've steamed and needled the hammers it sounds like there's some quality about these hammers that he doesn't like and since they are stock Abel hammers they very well might be too hard for his taste. I've removed perfectly good sets of hammers for people because the hammer just wasn't giving them the tone that they wanted. In my view steaming does soften the piano but it also has a way of just making the hammer sound dead because it simply softens the outer layers, it doesn't introduce greater flexibility into the hammer (the so called "cushion") which this type of hammer often desperately needs. If he thinks he wants a different hammer he might be right. The only way to find out what he wants is by sampling some other hammers. You need to get hold of a couple of different styles and they likely need to be softer and built up style rather than hard and needled down. You might ask him what he thinks he wants and why. Exploring and understanding the possibility of what a piano will produce is difficult even when you do it for a living, as a layperson (as this customer is) it is even more difficult. That doesn't mean that his target isn't legitimate or achievable. Don't get caught up in the "it's my responsibility" frame of mind. It's his responsibility to communicate what he wants, your responsibility to try and translate into practical applications. Assume a partnership role in helping him achieve his goals, outline the plusses and minuses as you see them of the different hammers you might try (that includes the costs--and don't forget rebalancing the action when and if you put on a new hammer) and move forward. Some of my seemingly most difficult customers have turned out to be my best customers. You just want to be sure that you start out on a footing that clearly defines your role, responsibility and fee structure so there is no confusion. When he starts blaming you and expecting you to fix things for free, then walk away. David Love www.davidlovepianos.com -----Original Message----- From: pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf Of Don Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2009 7:18 AM To: pianotech at ptg.org Subject: Re: [pianotech] New hammers Hi, Just say "no". Unless he is willing to pay your full rate for all service calls to "adjust" the tone. Then add him to the golden goose crowd. At 08:38 AM 7/1/2009 -0400, you wrote: >List, >I have a client with a Weinbach 6'4". He does extensive research >online, and seems very easily influenced by what he reads. >He is a very good player and knows what he wants as in voicing, but it >has been very difficult to please him. >So far I have lightly reshaped hammers, steamed, and needled to soften >the tone. >I think these are Abel hammers. >He now thinks he wants new hammers, but I am concerned that there may >be no end to his issues. >I could use some advice . >Thanks >RU/UP >Sent from my iPhone >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >Version: 8.5.375 / Virus Database: 270.13.1/2211 - Release Date: 06/30/09 11:37:00 > Regards, Don Rose, B.Mus., A.M.U.S., A.MUS., R.P.T. 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