[pianotech] New hammers

[Ed Sutton]

Will-

You will hear the longitudinal mode in the piano brands you mention.
I believe it has to do with the string material, diameter and length and the target pitch of the note, not the soundboard. 
PTG publishes Jim Ellis's book on the topic, which is not hard to understand, or I wouldn't be writing about it.

Impedance problems in the board and bridge could have other effects, but I will leave that for people who know better than me. Weights and riblets might help with those kinds of sounds.

Ed
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: William Truitt 
  To: 'Ed Sutton' ; pianotech at ptg.org 
  Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2009 9:46 PM
  Subject: RE: [pianotech] New hammers


  Interesting observation, Ed.  I've heard these metallic overtones in Steinways, Yamahas, Baldwins, Young Changs, Mason & Hamlins, etc.  The list goes on and on.  It may well be a longitudinal mode.  But here's the question for you:  Is the longitudinal mode the only possible source for these overtones if the board is good and the problem is not in the hammers.?.  You say scaling problem as in string scaling, right?  Or is this in the scaling of the board, too?  

   

  Inquiring minds want to know.

   

  Will

   

  From: pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf Of Ed Sutton
  Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2009 8:14 PM
  To: pianotech at ptg.org
  Subject: Re: [pianotech] New hammers

   

  Will- 

   

  It sounds like you are describing longitudinal mode partials. These will be in the vicinity of the 13th, 15th or 17th partials. It's a scaling problem which can only really be fixed by a scale adjustment. Once you hear them, it's hard to ignore them. Good hypothesis for this problem, especially if anyone can confirm the problem in other Weinbach pianos.

   

  Ed S.

    ----- Original Message ----- 

    From: William Truitt 

    To: pianotech at ptg.org 

    Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2009 7:42 PM

    Subject: Re: [pianotech] New hammers

     

    Ryan, thanks for sharing the link.  I think there are some possible clues here.  The problem Richard's customer is having is probably not one of voicing, although voicing will govern how clearly we hear it, and is often used to treat it.  But it is a matter of treating the symptom and not the problem.

     

    It's a bit risky on my part to offer analysis without hearing the piano, but what the hell, nobody's going to accuse me of having good sense anyway.

     

    There are many pianos that have prominent overtones in the low tenor to low treble section of the piano.  They can be quite prominent, and are often described as zings, buzzes, and "metallic overtones" would be another description tendered.  

    They are coming out of the soundboard but are not the result of some structural defect.  Voicing the piano down can put a curtain over them and make them less distinct, but they are still there.  Some customers will never hear them, others it will drive them out of their mind.  Often when customers start hearing them, they fixate on them, even if they have been there all the years they have owned the piano.  

     

    If this is what is going on, it is really important to establish that before doing any further voicing, because you are altering the tonal characteristics of the piano to mask this problem.  Within limits, that is an acceptable strategy, as long as the customer understands that is exactly what you are doing.  But I am gathering from your customer's comments on Pianoworld that you are paying the price elsewhere, because some of the notes sound dead.  You may have overneedled, but more likely you oversteamed those hammers.  More of the same will make matters only worse.

     

    New hammers are likely not an answer, since the problem comes from the board.  

     

    I agree with Ryan's comments on steaming.  I only steam when hammers are absolutely bulletproof, and with extreme care.  (Other's mileage on this technique may vary).

     

    I also gather from his comments that he is putting a lot of faith in you, so the customer is still on your side.  He just wants the piano to sound good to him.

     

    Will

     

    From: pianotech-bounces at ptg.org [mailto:pianotech-bounces at ptg.org] On Behalf Of Ryan Sowers
    Sent: Wednesday, July 01, 2009 3:07 PM
    To: pianotech at ptg.org
    Subject: Re: [pianotech] New hammers

     

    It looks like this is the other side of the discussion that is going on in the Pianoworld technician forum:

    http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1223332/replacement%20hammers%20for%20Weinba.html#Post1223332

    Richard, 

    With all due respect, I'm concerned about your approach to the voicing. The red flag for me was using steam on an Abel hammer. Abel hammers respond well to tradition needle voicing, and I would never choose to use steam on a hammer like this. If you have a client with discriminating taste, you may need to call in a tech who is a voicing specialist. I have done this on more than one occasion, and it has been very insightful. The client will usually appreciate that you are willing to bring in someone with more experience - they will feel that you really want them to be taken care of. You may also gain some very valuable information. 




    -- 
    Ryan Sowers, RPT
    Puget Sound Chapter
    Olympia, WA
    www.pianova.net
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